Mahakasyapa is the legendary founder of the Zen lineage. She was one of the 10 great disciples of the historical Buddha Shakyamuni along with Ananda. The story about Mahakasyapa receiving, becoming the first ancestor of Zen in India is that Shakyamuni was preaching one day to the assembly at Vulture Peak where he preached the Lotus Sutra and other sutras, major teachings, and the Buddha caught up a flower, and Mahakasyapa smiled. And the Buddha said, Mahakasyapa, you have received the true Dharma-I treasury, wondrous mind of Nirvana. True Dharma-I treasury in Japanese is Shobogenzo, the title of one of Dogen's major works. So this is the story of the first Dharma transmission in Zen.

[01:08]

This is not historical. The first recorded version of the story is around somewhere in the 1000s or around 1100 in China. But because it's not historical doesn't mean it's not true or important. So these stories, these koans are about, not about historical data, something that happened 2,500 years ago or 1,200 years ago or whatever, but stories about our own practice mind and practice body. How is it that we receive the Dharma? And in this case of these two stories, how is it that the Dharma is transmitted and carried on? So these two figures are important in Buddhist history and Zen lore, Mahakasyapa and then Ananda. So Ananda was the cousin of the Buddha and joined the Buddha's order of monks after the Buddha was enlightened.

[02:15]

And there were numbers of Buddhist family members who joined his order. Ananda particularly, well, the Buddhist son Rahula joined, and then Ananda was particularly important in really nagging the Buddha, pushing the Buddha to found an order of nuns. He was very sympathetic to women. along with Mahaprajapati, whose name Serena chanted before in our dedication, who was the founder of the Order of Nuns, really, Ananda and Mahakasyapa, really pushed Buddha to do this very radical thing, because women were considered, at that time, a patriarchal Buddha, and through much of the history of Asian Buddhism, and in many ways as we know today, they were considered maybe less so today, but considered really second class, and that women couldn't be enlightened, and there's some old sutras that have that kind of talk, and yet Mahaprajapati prevailed and Ananda prevailed, and the Buddha recognized this very radical thing of founding an order of nuns.

[03:33]

he still made them secondary in seniority to the monks, which we should rightfully have some problem with. But one understanding of that might be that he was trying to protect them from the view of contemporary Indian society. The Buddha also admitted outcasts, untouchables, into the order of monks, equal with the other monks and equal with the other nuns. So anyway, that's one aspect of Ananda and Mahakasyapa. Mahakasyapa was, amongst the Ten Great Disciples, considered the most expert in yajna, in a monk's regulations and in ascetic practices. So there's a way in which these two figures are kind of complements, just like Manjushri, the Bodhisattva of Wisdom, on the center of our Zendo, and Kanon, the Bodhisattva of Compassion, who hears the sounds of the world on either side of the Zendo.

[04:34]

And sometimes there's this very gaunt, kind of gnarly-looking, maybe Jerome is a version of Mahakasyapa anyway, this gnarly version of image of Mahakasyapa on one side of the Buddha in Japanese temples, and then Ananda on the other side, kind of smiling and slightly plump and just kind of a more jovial figure. Maybe you see those in China, too, Mahakasyapa and Ananda as a pair. The story, though, has to do with, well, Ananda had perfect recall. So all of the Buddhist sutras are defined by their, and the Heart Sutra is a prominent exception, an interesting exception, but most Buddhist sutras, almost all Buddhist sutras, begin with, thus have I heard at a certain time, at a certain place, with certain beings present, the Buddha said. And this is Ananda dictating, recalling the

[05:38]

talk of the Buddha because he had perfect recall and he was the Buddha's attendant for 20 years or more, and he remembered everything the Buddha said. And so there was a conference of, after the Buddha died, of all of the arhats, all of the arhat disciples, the perfectly purified ones, and Mahakasyapa was the head of that conference, and he invited Ananda in to relate the word, what the Buddha said. So Ananda's the witness to the Buddha. But until this story, again, according to this legend, Ananda himself was not perfectly enlightened. He still had attachments, he still hadn't really let go of self. And in this story, again, Ananda comes to Mahakasyapa and said, well, what was it that the Buddha gave you? Aside from the insignia, the brocade robe, and what was it?

[06:45]

And then Mahakasyapa called out, Ananda. Ananda said, yes. Mahakasyapa said, take down the banner. Take down the flagpole in front of the gate. So a number of aspects of this story, again, but maybe foremost is just this idea of a flagpolar banner that we're all waving. This is the nature of human consciousness and human suffering and human delusion, this construction of a self, this attachment to a self. And the particular reference is to the old tradition in Indian Buddhism, which has continued, at least in the Goloka school, the Dalai Lama school of Tibetan Buddhism, where they put out a banner in front of the monastery, like if we put out a flag on Irving Park in front of the Major Dragon, where we're gonna have a formal Dharma debate, and they have these very sharp, a little bit like the Shuso ceremony at Tassajara, they have these very sharp,

[07:57]

debates and back and forth, taking different positions on different aspects of the doctrine. And Maka Shabtzi said, take down the flagpole. Take down the banner. So as human beings, I would say that the deepest aspect of this story is that as human beings, of course, we all carry banners. We all have our ID papers. We all have, you know, our driver's license or social security card or maybe a passport and so forth. We all have, you know, many of us anyway, if we ever have been on the job market, have resumes and, you know, whole lists of credentials. And we might sometimes be very proud of our accomplishments or the various things we've done.

[09:07]

We have these banners that we can wave sometimes. And this... These banners, this attachment to these aspects of personal history and our story about ourselves, in many ways are the greatest impediment to our receiving the Dharma. Now, it's not that you shouldn't feel good about things that you've done that were good. And it's not that we don't have various things we're grateful for and various things that we've accomplished or that we are skilled at or whatever. We still have a self. And this is part of the commentaries of the story. We do have this conventional self when we get up from sitting, after we take down the banner, if we do have some experience of that.

[10:11]

There is still this person, the body and mind on your cushion or chair right now, and we go out into the world and try and take care of. How do we take care of ourselves in the world and friends and family and relationships? So it's not that we, again, this is not lobotomy Zen. We don't get rid of our personal identity. Non-self doesn't mean even getting rid of the ego. It does mean, though, how do we let go of waving the banner? How do we take down this? This is difficult because sometimes we need, practically speaking, to promote what we're doing. So Nathan has done a wonderful job of promoting Ancient Dragon to help us keep going and to help let people know of our being here in this space that's available, for example.

[11:14]

So it's okay that we let people know who we are, and even maybe what we've done. But if we think that is important, if we hold on to that as some identity that we're proud of and that we wave in front of others, that's a little bit of a problem. The story, the commentary in The Gateless Gate by the person who put together these 49, 48 cases, there's 48 and there's another one sometimes. Anyway, Wu Man said, if you can utter a pivotal saying here in response to this story, you will personally see the assembly on Vulture Peak, still there intact. Otherwise, an ancient Buddha focused on this from the start, yet still has not found the mystery.

[12:17]

And this is a reference to that saying about one of the ancient Buddhas before Buddha. There are many Buddhas, and Buddhas before Buddha, and Buddhas after Buddha. Maitreya will be the next future Buddha. And there are many Buddha ancestors. My teacher is 92nd in the lineage we chant from starting with Mahakasyapa as number one. And we know now that in China they put together the lineage of Indian ancestors. And still, whether we know the names or not, somebody was keeping this alive, you know, hand to hand, body to body, sub-body. Someone was showing how to actually sit, how to actually take on the practice. in as best we can in our own imperfect way. How do we carry this on? So this is about carrying on. Well, they call it sometimes the family style. We are all children of Buddha. We are all children of Mahakasyapa and Ananda also, and of Suzuki Roshi and Dogen, Bodhidharma.

[13:23]

How do we carry on as we practice this together, this, what to call it? Well, this ancient Buddha Vipassana has still not figured out what to call him. He still hasn't gotten to the bottom of the mystery. And this is part of the tension of this story. This is the other aspect of the story, that it's not about some debate or dialogue. It's not about some particular doctrine that you can formulate. So trying to argue about, you know, Dogen says this very early in his teachings. He says, arguing about the supremacy of this school or that school of Buddhism you know, Madhyamaka Yogacara, whatever, it doesn't matter. That's not the point. How is your practice? How are we actually taking this on, this body and mind, with each other, with our friends and family, and when we go out into this difficult world and into our lives? So, it's not about some debate. It's not about taking some position.

[14:25]

It's not about being right. It's not about having the answers. How do we practice it? How do we share it? Warm hands are warm hands. So, Wu Men's other comment in his verse, how is the point, well, Tang theory translates it as how is the point of the question as intimate as the point of the answer? So partly this is about intimacy. This is about how Ananda became intimate with Mahakasyapa. And partly, it's the point of the question for Ananda to just ask, what was it you received when you were given this dharma? And Madhva Shastra called, Ananda. And Ananda said, yes. And that's enough, really. The story could end there.

[15:26]

What is it we receive in this immediate response, call and response, call and response? We will have a ceremony of call and response this Friday evening here. How do we respond to each other immediately, without mediation, without some idea of what the teaching is, without some explanation of it? So the verse also says, elder brother calls, younger brother responds, bringing out the family disgrace. So I mentioned this yesterday, this woman calls this a family disgrace, and maybe he's talking about Ananda not getting it after having heard all, and memorized all of these sutras of the Buddha, and not getting it for so long. But also, it's that there's this flagpole, there's this banner that as human beings we hold up.

[16:34]

There are various kinds of styles of banner and various fashions of what kinds of banner to use and what colors to use and what the cut of the cloth should be and so forth. And yet, once we take down the banner, then how is it that we carry on? This is the family disgrace. Here we are. And even if we take down the banner a little bit, it's persistent. We have the habit of holding out the banner. We have the habit of, you know, waving our banners and saying, hey, look at me. Or we have the habit of, you know, when someone questions us, hey, wait a second, here, I've got this banner. We all have our own way of doing that.

[17:38]

And what Maha Kashyapa was saying to Ananda is, let go. Drop it. Or Dogon says, drop body and mind. So this is, you know, very simple in some way. Just do it now. And yet, you know, we need to keep hearing this story. So, the founder of the Xiaodong or Shouzhou lineage in China, Dongshan, had his main disciple, who was named Yuanzhu. And Yuanzhu, It says in this commentary, he used this koan to refer to two basic issues of Zen. He said, if you understand before the flagpole is taken down, you bury the ancient religion. If you understand after the flagpole is taken down, you let yourself down. So if you cling to, comment on that, if you cling to outward forms as sacred in themselves, you obscure the endless source of conscious being itself.

[18:59]

But if you cling to annihilation of forms as truth, you deny your own life in the world. So if you understand before the flagpole is taken down, you bury the ancient religion. we need, we actually need to, you know, part of this idea of a spiritual lineage, of an actual tradition of practice, as opposed to just, you know, using your intellect or using your inner wisdom even to try and find spiritual truth, to have some tradition. This is what we offer. This is what the Buddha has offered. This is what Mahakasyapa, and Bodhidharma, and Dongsheng, and this fellow Yonju, and Dogen later, Suzuki Roshi, we can plug into this particular tradition, this ancient religion. And of course there are various lineages, and we can respect all of those, but there's a particular practice, there's a particular tradition.

[20:01]

If you understand before the flagpole is taken down, you bury this spiritual tradition. So maybe that could refer to Pratyekabuddhas. This is kind of beings who understand actually what a Buddha understands. They see through the chain of causation. They see the fundamental question of ignorance. Maybe they even see how they've created delusion by waving banners. But they still have the banner up there. They haven't found a physical practice, which is what Sozin offers. On the other hand, if you understand after the flagpole is taken down, you let yourself down. So this is tricky. Again, taking the banner down doesn't mean Well, maybe in some cases, there may be some people who, for them, it's the right thing to go off into the desert and live the rest of their lives in a cave just sitting.

[21:19]

It might be that for some people that would be their way of helping the world. I don't know. They'd have to have a very powerful samadhi, I think, to do that. But part of taking down the banner is Also that, okay, then you show up and help others to see this way, to take on this practice, each in our own way. This is what we're doing here. But then we need to remember, Mahakasyapa said, take down the banner. So even if you are very dedicated to the Dharma, and to sharing this, and to sharing this practice, and to helping each other in this way, we can forget, and we can start waving our banners again. Sangha is about how we remind each other, oh, okay, hi, I see you.

[22:22]

It's okay, you don't need to wave your banner anymore. Just come and join the circle. So how do we do that? There's a great mystery here. Even this ancient Buddha hasn't figured it out yet. So I started to read part of this commentary by Dogen yesterday, and I want to go a little further with it this evening. And Dogen, in this particular commentary on the story, is focusing less on the aspect of taking down the banner, but on the fact of this immediate response and how it's not a matter of some particular position or right protocol or ritual or particular form or particular idea or formulation of the Dharma.

[23:28]

So he quotes, to start, he quotes from the Lotus Sutra, Before he gets to the story, he says, this dharma cannot be demonstrated. The form of words is quiescent. This dharma cannot be demonstrated. So we do have, actually, procedures, rituals, forms for moving around in the Zen dome. We have forms for how we do service and various and how we chant for meals during day-long sittings, and when we hit the Han. We have various forms. And it's okay that we use those, and they can be a great support. And in monastic situations, like I was describing a little bit at Tassajara, there are many, many more forms. But practically speaking, here we are, a lay Sangha in a storefront in this big city.

[24:31]

wherever you are, this dharma cannot be demonstrated, the Lotus Sutra says. The form of words is quiescent. So we can't actually, we can do the practice, we can take it on, we can find our way of expressing ourselves in the practice, but the heart of this dharma can't be demonstrated in words. The forms of the words are So he says, what is the form of words? What is quiescence? I would say that this dharma itself is the form of words and the form of quiescence. This is the kind of thing that the Lotus Sutra says. It's not about something else. You can't talk about it. Satsang is not about something else other than just sitting, just expressing Buddha, taking on the Buddha mudra. as we can see in our image of Buddha on the altar and other Buddhist images.

[25:39]

He continues, commentary that goes beyond can only be truly seen when the eye on the head top opens. So we don't see through our usual ways of understanding. And yet, we can recognize something. We can receive something. Eric? Yes? It's like that. There's a call and there's a response. And we hear these stories. And some of these stories sometimes, you know, some of these callings are interesting. Why? You know, I don't get it. So some of us have those reactions to some of these stories. Some of the stories I don't get either. I talk about the ones that somehow call to me and try and share with you why that's so, how that's so.

[26:45]

But the dharma, the sutras and these teaching stories and talking about the transcendent practices and the precepts and all of the things that we offer as aids to zazen are just that. when we hear something and we recognize it, that's like, Ananda, yes. So, how do we, how do we, this is a different kind of seeing than trying to figure out what the Dharma is through discussing various philosophical positions or various sutras. It's okay to enjoy the sutras, but we, hear them and enjoy them from this deeper place. So after that introduction, Dogen says, long ago, Venerable Ananda visited Mahakasyapa and asked, Elder Brother, aside from the golden brocade dharma robe of the Buddha, what else were you transmitted? Mahakasyapa called out, Ananda.

[27:51]

Ananda responded. Mahakasyapa said, take down the banner in front of the gate. And in this version of the story from Dogen, he says, immediately upon hearing this, Ananda was greatly awakened. And I won't read all of this commentary, but I want to get to... This particular commentary is in a letter that Dogen wrote to one of his students, a nun named Rionan. So Dogen had numbers of women students. So, you know, maybe partly he's talking about Ananda here because he is writing to Rionan. She was one of his... one of his close disciples in Kyoto before he went up to Eheiji. I'm not sure if she made that trip. She may have stayed behind in Kyoto. There's no record of her in Eheiji, but that doesn't mean she wasn't there. But clearly Dogen highly respected her. One of his other women students, and there were numbers of them, was actually the grandmother of Keizo, who I mentioned

[29:02]

was considered the second founder of Soto Zen, who I'll talk about more this year. Anyway, Dogen has particular things to say to Ryonan in this longer commentary on the story. Well, a little bit of what he says first. This single koan gives a good hand for leisurely realization. So, Dogen's saying this is a good, Good story to take your time with in your leisure. Realize what's going on here. So whatever I say about it is just a little bit of what it can mean to you. Ultimately, Dogen says, what is this dharma? Why can't it be demonstrated? What is the vital activity within the house of dharma that cannot be demonstrated? This is spoken of as the inexhaustible Dharma gate in which the cypress tree in the garden and bits of clouds on the mountain peaks follow the wind according to the season.

[30:12]

So this is not outside of the realities of winter and spring and seasons and the growing of things and the struggle of being in this world. And yet, there's this inexhaustible Dharmakirti here, he says. So, he continues, old man Shakyamuni and great teacher Bodhidharma, side by side, practice together the matter that is under their feet. This is about practicing something that is right here, under your sabbaton, under your chair, right now. How do we recognize it? How do we recognize this process of call and response, of taking down the banner? So he says about Shakyamuni and Bodhidharma, one has already left his palace, the other has finally come to the eastern land.

[31:18]

The truth that they have simply transmitted and directly indicated is exactly this dharma. Whether it can be demonstrated or not, either way it is this dharma. This one, right here. In the posture you're in right now. Seeing and holding it, turning the head, stepping back, proceeding forward and turning the body over. Nothing other than this dharma. And then Dogen addresses Ryonen directly. He says to her, So these are, again, this is all from a letter, and this section of Dogen's extensive record are letters to particular students. He says, Wayfarer Ryonin, you have the seeds of prajna from early on in life, intently aspiring to the great way of Buddha ancestors.

[32:20]

You have a strong, robust aspiration. without begrudging any effort in nurturing the way. For you, I will demonstrate the precise meaning coming from the West." So this is, you know, this question Ananda asked, what is it that you received from the Buddha? Aside from, you know, the robe of transmission, bowls and whatever other paraphernalia came with it. What is it you got? And this is the essential question that is our zazen. What is Buddha? And often, since China has been asked, why did Bodhidharma come from the West? So he's standing on our altar. on the Tenzo side of Zendo, this figure of Kauri Dharma.

[33:22]

It's another way of saying, what's it all about? What's the meaning? It's hard. What's our life about? How do we find our way? So Dogen says directly to Ryonen, without begrudging any effort in nurturing the way for you, I will demonstrate the precise meaning coming from the West. It is. Can any of you imagine what Dogen said? Some of you might have read this before or heard me say it. Do any of you remember? Good. So, without begrudging any effort in nurturing the way, for you, Ryonen, Dogen says, I will demonstrate the precise meaning coming from the West. That is, if you do not hold on to a single phrase or half a verse, a bit of talk or a small expression, in this slump of red flesh you will have some accord with the clear, cool ground.

[34:33]

But if you hold on to a single word or half a phrase of the Buddha ancestor sayings or of the koans from the ancestral gate, they will become dangerous positions I'm sorry, dangerous poisons, he says. Maybe they're dangerous positions too, but if you hold on to a single word or half a phrase of the Buddha Ancestor's sayings, they become dangerous poisons. If you want to understand this mountain monk's activity, this mountain monk's actual actions and practice and activity, do not remember these comments. Truly avoid being caught up in thinking. So please forget everything that I've said so far. Of course, this is tricky. This is why he calls it a poison. This is like, of course, taking down the banner. Don't hold on to any words.

[35:39]

Don't even forget the story about Maha Kshapananda. That's fine. Do you hear something, though? Do you recognize something? from deep under the ground. If you don't, that's fine, too. So we can make various slogans like, you know, drop body and mind into, you know, banners and think we know something or wave them around. Maybe we actually understand them very well. What Dogen said to Ryonen was, don't hold on to them. Forget that. This is a zazen instruction, too. So in your zazen, when you actually, you know, so all of you have sat zazen numbers of times. If you try and remember the very most wonderful period of zazen that ever happened in your body and mind,

[36:44]

Forget it. And yet that's there right now also. So this story about Mahakasyapa and Ananda is tricky. Don't hold on to the stories. And of course, if you remember the stories, it's okay. Even though Dogen told Ryonan that the essential meaning is to not remember any of his comments. It's kind of a problem. Because if you remember he said that, then you remember it. If you don't remember he said that, you might remember other things he said. We've got a problem here. What is it we think we know? So, you know, this is about

[37:49]

what goes on beyond the awareness in your body as you sit. We do have banners, we do have ideas. Many of the people in this room are very bright. All of you. Very well educated. Very talented. This is good. Please use that. And yet there's something at the heart that is as simple as, Nathan? Yep. Amina? Yes. So we can all do this, you know, we're all, hi, hey. Something about, you know, the word hello. Can anybody tell me what it means? Hi.

[38:53]

Yeah, but it doesn't mean anything other than the word itself. How do we meet our world without definitions of words, just with the language of Zazen, just with this mudra, this posture, this inhale, this exhale? And then, you know, part of the practice, practically speaking, and sustaining this, and continuing to study this mystery, like this ancient Buddha, Seventh Buddha before Buddha, or whatever. How do we sustain this? And part of that is, okay, yeah, I've got these banners. So, you know, there are things that we know, each of us in our own way, and yet, How do we not start waving those banners in each other's faces?

[39:59]

Or when we go out into the world, the so-called world, the difficult world, the incredibly corrupt society we live in. Difficult. How do we share Buddha's heart and love without ever mentioning Buddha? We don't have to mention Buddha. We don't have to, you know, we live in a society where Buddhism is, you know, this very minority tradition. At least it's not actively persecuted. If we were Muslims, we'd have to worry more. But we don't have to. talk about Buddhism, to share Buddha's love, to share this sense of taking down the flagpole.

[41:11]

Hey, hi, ho. There's more to say about Mahakasyapa and Ananda and this story, but maybe that's enough for me to say tonight. Comments, questions, responses, utterances, please feel free. Yes, Serena? It's interesting the thinking about taking down the flagpole for not only to take down the flagpole, because it's very much like you're saying, acknowledging there's a flagpole, that there's a flag waving, and regardless of what it represents, it's that acknowledgement that that actually doesn't have

[42:23]

It doesn't affect that there's a temple right there that has this practice and this, you know, this doctrine practice. It's just a flag, so, you know, taking it down is, that seems like, yeah, just having that awareness that there's a flag there. in my recent history, short-term history of just this weekend, and sometimes around holidays, when there's a lot of people around, as time goes on, I don't really have anything to talk about. And sometimes I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Sometimes I think it's a good thing. But I think a lot of that is having something flagged, like, this is what I'm about, and this is what I do.

[43:29]

And I'm kind of not used to just talking about whatever, like the report. In the past, maybe that came more naturally. And then I think about it, like, is that good? Like, did I show up at that party well or whatever? And it's just a funny thing. Yeah, part of having a banner is then you're kind of keeping score, right? I don't know. Like, you have to talk about something. Maybe it's just something to talk about. It seems kind of... It doesn't seem like anything really, but that's the only thing I can think of. It's like, oh, it's just... you know, that back and forth, the call and response, the social call and response. Yeah, well, we can, you know, we can say, oh, I've got this banner, here, I'm taking it down. Right. There are various ways, yeah. But, you know, when you're talking about... He doesn't say, you know, we have this thing about the flag in this country, and... So, Naga Shapa didn't say, burn the flag.

[44:43]

Yeah, take down the banner. But yeah, you know, this thing about waving flags gets to be a big problem in the world. Because then, you know, my flag right or wrong, or whatever. And we can have wars about which is the best flag. And this happens, yeah. Thank you. Other responses, comments? reflections. Yes, Lauren. Well, I just wanted to say that Ananda has always been my favorite. Oh, I do not. He seems so humble and useful. And so many times these Zen guys, you know, they cut off their own arm. They do stuff you could never ever think about being able to do. And he just seems so relatable. And it's so helpful to me to have someone like that in these stories.

[45:50]

And he goes on for 40 years doing this practice and being an attendant. So helpful, but modest. So anyway, just wanted to say how much I love him. Yeah, I like him, too. That memory of his is really useful, too. That memory is really useful, too. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, just the way you described him. So, Kshapa was gaunt, and Ananda was, what did you say, round-faced and smiling, or something like that. Yeah. Oh, my God. Kind of relaxed. I said, yes, sir. Low-key. But he remembered every word of the Buddhist book. Yes. There's another story about him, which is, you know, a little different tack. And so I want to talk about Mahakasyapa and Ananda for a while. So we'll do that this coming month. But there's a story about Ananda's death, that this is after, long after Mahakasyapa.

[46:56]

And Ananda was very much revered by, people in India, and there were two kingdoms side by side, and the two kings each wanted to have Ananda's ashes after he died. Imagine people fighting over your ashes before you even die. But they wanted to build stupas to Ananda in both countries. They each had their own flag, I guess. announced that he was going to go on a boat. It's the middle of the river between the two countries, so they'd have to share his ashes, and he died on this boat. Anyway, another story about Ananda. Eric? I'll just stop thinking about Bogan's letter to his student. Ryonan, yeah. Yes, thank you.

[47:58]

That's part of Dogen citing that story in that commentary. Don't worry about remembering it. Ananda did it for us. Yes, Adam. I wonder, going on what Eric said, The idea is to exhaust rational thought because, you know, for 45 minutes I listened to you and I was really trying to understand, and at the end you said, forget it. And then which leaves me feeling like, you know, like there's this graveyard of rational thought. And that's the point. Like, does he get to the point where does it fly you up or is it down and you really don't care? Yeah. Good. Adam.

[49:00]

Silence is a good answer sometimes, too. Yeah, you know, and it's not that you... Again, it's not... I don't want to get into lobotomies then. It's not that you should get rid of your rational mind. But is that what leads us or, you know, is that something you use later on to kind of help take care of this physical sense of the graveyard of all those banners and flagpoles and ideas. And yet here you are. I'll pray. Yes, Tom. is any rational form or the material on a banner is a self-image inside your mind. Okay. That's a question. Yes. Yes. Good. It's both or... It's both or.

[50:06]

Okay. Thank you for your question. Various kinds of banners. Can we recognize when we're waving them? Can we let go? Dogen's commentary on it is a little bit extreme. I would say it's okay if you remember that Dogen said not to remember. It's okay. It's okay if you forget that Dogen said not to remember and then you do remember. It's okay. Are you, how tight are you holding on to the banner? How much, are you waving it around? Can you just, you know, let it go? Be here. Enjoy your next breath. Yes, Eric? You know, I'm just, I'm maybe just getting stuck on the words, but, you know, the story, it doesn't, Yeah, there's different versions of it.

[51:08]

Sometimes it says take down the banner, sometimes it says take down the flagpole. I can look at the Chinese, but there's a number of different places the story appears. Sure. Yeah, let's not have wars over flags, you know. Nathan.

[52:17]

My old boss used to say, uh, Yeah, I remember that song. Yeah, well, that's kind of the same thing, though. That's like Eric saying, just let it be blowing in the wind. You don't have to hold onto it. To be yourself is to not need to hang out a banner. No separation between all the different banners. And we can change our banner. We can, you know, add stars or stripes or circles or little paisley things or whatever. Serpents. Dragons. Turtles and rabbits.

[53:20]

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