as most of you know, I think we're having a Sashin here, so this is the second talk of this Sashin. So it may be a little funny for those of you not in Sashin. Last Sashin someone said to me, why were you angry yesterday? And I didn't feel so angry. In Sashin the feeling is a little different. Yesterday I spoke about our body, how in the session we return to considering our breathing and ceasing to

[01:04]

exist only in our mental fabrications. And yet how, especially putting too much attention on the much Zen lore about our body and our hara, we can create another fabrication. there's no self to be discriminated, how can we even fabricate a being? So from the other point of view too, not from the point of view of someone

[02:14]

beginning practice, but someone who has thoroughly realized the first principle, emptiness. How can you live in the ordinary circumstances without discrimination? It's the same kind of problem. And the fifth story in the Blue Cliff Records about Seppo is about this kind of problem. Seppo says, picking up the world. It's as big as a seed of milt. Throwing it down, it's like searching for a lacquered pail. Let's beat the drum and look for it everywhere.

[03:43]

Lacquered pail means a black lacquer pail in a pitch-dark room. How could you find it? We don't have many lacquer pails. There's a story that at Tozan's temple, the guardian deity of Tozan's temple, wanted to see Tozan, but he couldn't see Tozan. So he took some rice and wheat from the monastery supplies and he scattered them all over the parking lot. Anyway, he scattered them all about.

[05:09]

Tozan came out and saw all this rice and wheat, and he immediately thought, who could have done this? And at that moment, the guardian deity got a chance to see him. Do you understand what I mean? So, usually in a monastery we take quite good care of everything. just as it exists. So, needing some chance to see Tozan, he scattered this wheat and rice. So, often a teacher will take this kind of opportunity, or a student will take this kind of opportunity, to create some opportunity, to create some situation where you can see how we act. You know this taking care of things,

[06:46]

Yesterday I noticed that many of you step up onto the tan. And I don't know if you can understand this point. It was a pretty difficult point for me. But if the tan was intended to be stepped up onto, it would be on the ground. Because it's higher, we should treat it differently. You know, the distinction between the tan and the floor should not just be a visual distinction. You can see it's higher. But you treat it with your feet as if it was the floor. It's quite easy to treat it as the floor. Actually, on this kind of point

[07:52]

Suzuki Roshi used to get quite angry with me, more than almost anything else. I remember once we had some rather precious ancient document spread out on the tatami, which you can't quite call a floor, you know, in Japan. It's not a floor and not a table, some kind of living surface. Anyway, he was pointing out some detail which I had to understand. To see where he was pointing, I had to stand up, and instead of walking around it, I stepped across it. It wasn't very wide, and bent down, and he almost knocked me on my face, almost knocked my legs out from underneath me, for that kind of callousness. He didn't. I would have fallen on top of the document.

[09:06]

So I think for us we have to make a special effort in this kind of practice of recognizing the distinctions among things in all kinds of, in all of our actions, not just some visual distinction, but if it's different you recognize it, physically different And each thing, where you handle it or respond to it, you allow its differences to be there. If you don't allow its differences to be there, you might as well live in those houses which are all alike, you know, going down the coast. Each one has a lamp in the window and looks exactly alike. Or those stained, those glass and aluminum and steel buildings. There everything is the same and you can treat it the same. But if it's different, we should treat it differently, not just do what seems natural or easiest to us. You know, from the point of view of our usual self,

[10:50]

things have value in terms of our desire for them. But from the point of view of the first principle, things have value by their difference. Difference is value. There isn't different value. Do you see what I mean? Difference itself is value is usefulness. So each thing has its difference, which is its value. And that value is equal in its difference. Our language doesn't quite express this, but when you realize the first principle, even have a taste of it, you won't any longer have the same kind of problem with value or good or bad, though you clearly recognize difference.

[12:07]

So the introduction to this Blue Cliff Records number five is about this. It begins, to see the working of Zen we must have some person of noble qualities. It means, of course, some refined or developed or honest person. But it also means these curious stories which may make you forget yourself. But these curious stories are also a problem. They're very helpful and encouraging, but

[13:38]

We shouldn't be too involved in them. Just to help each other is enough without trying to be so concerned, without being so concerned to demonstrate Zen or observe Zen on everything. I receive many letters from people who read Zen stories and feel a great relief finally at recognizing some secret in themselves. And yet if you practice Zen a long time you get rather tired of Zen stories. There's always, you know, because there's no need to do anything, there's always a kind of demonstration, a kind of concoction. But if you can see this concoction in the totality of your own situation in life, and as a single event in somebody's life,

[15:15]

you can begin to feel it. So it says, needed is a person of noble qualities. And when you are about to take a man's life, a person's life, wavering eyes and hesitation are not needed. And then it goes on, you know, talking about what kind of opportunities must be taken or made or how difficult it is for a teacher not knowing what to do. to suggest something. Seppo was an extremely interesting person. He's the example of anyone can do it. He practiced very hard and had quite a hard time and he became an extremely famous teacher.

[16:43]

I guess they say there were like always more than 1,000 people with him in the last part of his life. And Unmon studied with him and many famous teachers. He was a disciple of Tokusan and Tozan really too. And Tokusan is a disciple of Sekito Kisen, who did the Sando Kai, which we chant. It's a branch of the same lineage of Tozan. And Seppo went to see Tozan many times, I guess eight or nine or ten times. and he was staying at Tozan's monastery. When Tozan came into the kitchen, and Setpo is also famous for

[18:17]

Practicing in the kitchen, the room where monks sleep in a monastery is called seppo's room. And like in Taiji Roshi, Uchiyama Roshi in Kyoto now, who served Sawaki Kodo Roshi, only he wanted to stay in the kitchen for 20 years. Anyway, Seppo was in the kitchen and he was taking out sand or stones from the rice. And Tozan came in and said, Are you separating the sand

[19:23]

from the rice or the rice from the sand. And Tozan and Seppo said both. And Tozan said, then we must eat the sand. How are we going to eat? And so Tozan, Seppo turned the rice bowl upside down. Tosan said, you are no disciple of mine, get out of this monastery. So, Seppo was quite demolished, you know, nine times he'd been thrown out or left. Seppo was quite, everyone knew Seppo was quite good, but he, he's one of those people who was always very close And so took some pride in that, and was always a million miles away. And they knew he would continue, you know. So they were quite hard on him. So, anyway, Seppo went to Tokusan, who was also a famous Zen master at that time.

[20:51]

And Tokusan is most famous for it. And anytime anybody said anything to him, practically he said, give him 30 blows. So, Seppo went to see him and told him what? happened with Tosan, and of course Toksan beat him up. And he had some kind of enlightenment, some kind of realization, with the daylights gone out of him. But still there was some doubt, and he couldn't resolve this doubt, as I was saying yesterday. If you still have this kind of doubt, not quite sure, not quite knowing why you practice, what is the resolution of your life, you should confront that. So Seppo continued, and Seppo and Ganto were traveling, and Ganto was a

[22:15]

disciple of Togesan who was a teacher with Togesan, like Baso and Nanaka and other teachers who worked together. Ganto was Seppo's fellow disciple and yet was also Seppo's teacher. And as I say, Seppo, Ganto and Tokusan rather worked together in this way.

[23:31]

and Ganto and Seppo were traveling and they were camped at the base of some mountain and Ganto went to sleep and he opened his eyes later and by the fire Seppo was doing zazen. And he said, what are you doing zazen for? Why don't you go to sleep? And Seppo said, I still have some doubt, something I can't resolve, and so I must keep sitting. This kind of practice had gone on for many years. Kassan Ganto said, quoting a famous Chinese saying, don't you know that that which enters through the gate is not an heirloom? Don't you know that that which comes through the gate is not a family treasure?

[25:01]

you know, the second precept is, do not take what is not given, but here he's saying, what is given doesn't belong to you. Do not take what is given. Setpo said something like, but where shall I look for it? This lacquered pail, this millet seed. And Ganto said, just what comes forth. It means you have to resolve all seeking. Not that you have to produce something to come forth. Just now is enough. And his final doubts were resolved and Zeppo danced and jumped about and said, I am enlightened at the foot of this mountain. Anyway.

[26:38]

There's another story about Ganto and Zeppo. Tokson came down from his abbot's room and he was carrying his eating bowls. I guess maybe the kitchen was a little late or something. the bell had not rung yet for mealtime. So, Setpo said, Oh, Dōka-san, he said very respectfully to his teacher, the bell and drum have not sounded yet. Oh, is that so?" said Tokusan. And he turned around and went back to his room. Seppo was maybe a little pleased that he'd corrected Tokusan or helped Tokusan. Tokusan didn't say anything. He just

[28:07]

said, oh, okay, and went back to his room. So Ganto, so Seppo went and told Ganto, and Ganto said, that tokusan is very good, but he doesn't understand yet the last word of Zen. So he went up to Tokusan's room. Oh, and you know, the story was repeated in the monastery. And Ganto didn't think Tokusan knew the last word of Zen. So Tokusan called him to his room and said, I hear you don't accept me. And Ganto went over and whispered something, some secret word in Tokusan's ear. What was that secret word? And so the next morning when he came down for Teisho, for his lecture, Tokusan's Teisho was much brighter and clearer than usual.

[29:35]

And afterwards, Ganto got up and said, ah, at last, Togasan has understood the final word of Zen. Anyway, Seppo didn't know what was going on. Stones in the rice always reminds me of a story I think I told you already once. or twice, but one day I was walking up Bush Street and Ed Brown, who's on vacation in the East, had spilled a big container of rice all over Bush Street. And he was collecting the rice. And I unnecessarily said, I hope you can separate the stones out from the rice and he said, you know, of course he would. And he was doing it then, you know. And several weeks later I was at Tassajara and eating and found this great stone. Last year I found a ball bearing in my house.

[31:04]

I always get them, they say. Did it come out of the grinder or something? What did it come out of? It was quite large, it was amazing. No, who found it? I didn't. Someone else found it and it rolled out of their sleeve as we were walking down the aisle. Who found it? Steve Weintraub, that's right. I had something else and then we were walking, he was Jisha, wasn't he? And suddenly, clunk, it fell on the floor and it rolled past me. And I picked it up, we went out with this ball bearing, I couldn't believe it. The kitchen was relieved, they didn't know where I let it go. Anyway, I found these stones. So I, various people were speaking about the stones and I went to see Sukirishi. I knew where they'd come from, of course.

[32:05]

He didn't say anything. When I told him about it, all he did was reach in his sleeve and he had three really big stools, bigger than anybody's. So this story of Doksan's bowls is interesting because Doksan was just acting quite easily, just coming down with his bowls. You know, we don't know. Did he just come down because it was time, or probably he must have known?

[33:49]

that there was, the drum hadn't sounded, but still he just came down and just went back. Just quite easy behavior. But like Tozan, like the Huiten, rice in the courtyard of the monastery, it gave the guardian deity, or it gave seppo, a chance to see, tokusan. So in this kind of practice, of session in which we eliminate our physical comings and goings mostly. We get a chance to see the repetition of our karma. Whenever something repeats itself, that's karma. And you can see very clearly your repetitions.

[35:16]

how to step each moment on a new path. So the first principle may be emptiness. The second principle may be just existing, not saying anything. First and second principle are rather more accessible ways to speak about form and emptiness from the point of view of Buddha.

[37:14]

form as expression. So how to open up your own inner eye and arouse that way-seeking mind enough to stay with what you see not easily slide into the surface of things again until you're forced to open try to open up your eye again all stuck shut Sanjeev Jai!

[38:54]

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