Excuse me for not being present with you since last night, but I went, I took a hike the other day, which I had to cross through the stream several times, and I got a little cold afterwards, and then last night, about three or four in the afternoon, I felt this flu germ arrive. He went here, and then he went there, and he went about, and I thought if I laid still enough, he might think I was just the station, and he might pass on down the line. Actually, I wouldn't have, wouldn't, I'd feel all right, I wouldn't have taken to bed if I didn't have to do the ordination

[01:06]

ceremonies Sunday, and it would be rather inconvenient to be sick at that time, so I thought I ought to get some rest. The question that we always are asking ourselves, and always, at least for a while, you're always asking yourself the question of what is practice, and I'm, you know, I always say things like, there's not much to say, and whatever you do is okay, but actually, even though that's all, that's quite true,

[02:16]

you don't know exactly what I mean, usually. And because we have so many ideas that are mixed up with our doing, when we think we're just doing what we're doing, we're actually acting out some idea of doing, or limiting our doing by some kind of idea. And so we need to know, we need to know some things not to do, and we need to have some priorities. Of course, I can give you some technical information about practice and various things, but usually when I give you those kind of lectures,

[03:18]

all but a few of you are a little bored. And most useful is when you ask questions. It was very interesting to me to hear your questions to Dr. Abe and to Les Kay, because they're different kind of questions than you ask me. Yes, sure. Bishop Yamada, do you all know who Bishop Yamada is? He's rare in Yamada. I've mentioned him a few times. He was the archbishop or bishop or something of all North America, and he lived in Los Angeles, and he would come up and do sesshins with Suzuki Roshi.

[04:24]

Is that better? A little better? And he's now second highest priest at Eheji. He's quite old now. And during a sesshin in San Francisco at Sokoji once, in the early 60s, he was fielding various questions, and near the end of the period, I hadn't asked any questions. And a kind of question had been building up in me, how to ask various questions. And finally I eliminated all questions, or they all reduced to one question, which you can't really ask, you know.

[05:38]

It's almost kind of flip to ask it. And it's hardly a question you can expect an answer to. But it was some force in me asked the question. And I said to Bishop Yamada, what is reality? He said, oh, I can't answer that this afternoon, he said. Wait till tomorrow. So the next day he started and he said he'd answer the question. And he did something very simple, which is he asked us all to sit and close our eyes, not half open, but close our eyes. And we sat there in the darkness.

[06:44]

That's all. What was wonderful about it in one way is that we're practicing some kind of life which is willing to at least try to answer such a question. Most things you have some either verbal answer or no answer. And his answer was very satisfactory. But we can't sit around in the dark all the time. And reality, in our practice, you have to be able to practice, as I've said the last couple of times I've talked, in the darkness, in the daytime, with your eyes open.

[08:07]

But still the problem of what is practice is there. So we have... The question arises all the time is how does practice differ from anything you do, anything anybody does? Why come to Tassajara? As Dr. Abe said, why should, even if we turn it around and say not everything, but you're already enlightened, why practice? Well, certainly definite conceptions you have interfere with your practicing.

[09:42]

And one of them, or let's say one kind of confusion occurs with the idea of who's practicing. We talk about big self, big mind. And you may get some idea of some universal self, which we all share. And that kind of way of formulating it is so close to our contemporary idea of a kind of scientific world where you can verify one thing to another. So what's true for you is true for someone else.

[10:52]

But in the usual sense of our practice this has no relevance. And I think probably one of the main obstacles for educated people practicing in this country, in the West, is this idea of being able to verify your experience. And we want to do so. It's a very persistent and interesting idea. And it came up the other day with Dr. Abe in talking about reincarnation. And one person asked a very real question, which we all ask, is how can you, is there any evidence for reincarnation? But the idea that there's some evidence for reincarnation is based on some idea of a universal self, or a universally verifiable knowledge.

[12:05]

And from the point of view of Buddhism there's no such thing. And that has the idea that the universe is repeatable. And you have the same idea of enlightenment, that enlightenment is some repeatable experience that you may have and then it continues, or you may have some experience and it may continue again. Or you may have some experience that other people have had. And the usual way of thinking about such things is completely wrong in Buddhism. So one thing you should know, and in a way stick to, is that everything that happens to you, as Dr. Abe said, will never happen again.

[13:11]

Any experience you have in zazen, say, or in your activity, is absolutely unique. And the self that practices Buddhism is absolutely unique, it's not some universal self. So what practices Buddhism is a very private thing. I can't say it's a thing, but I can say it's private. No one can verify anything for you. When Nyogen Senzaki's last words, he said, don't put any heads above your own heads.

[14:25]

This is what he meant. So you can't find out anything about reincarnation except through your own experience. And there's no need to look around beyond your own experience. And you have to have some priorities in your experience.

[15:42]

Things you remind yourself of. Maybe it's almost impossible to really practice Buddhism, but we can just sit, and that's really practicing Buddhism. But if you rigorously don't want to be caught by ideas, you've got to see what in your life is formulated, just some formulated attitude. And you've got to, with some ruthlessness, not let yourself be caught by it. Anyway, it requires some will or decision.

[17:13]

If you live in a Buddhist community like this, it's fairly easy not to be caught too much because this life is based on enlightenment. But if you go out into ordinary life situations, you'll be caught all the time. So if you want to be able to practice in any circumstance, you have to have some absolute kind of decision. Life is... You know, I can say life is a dream and quickly gone.

[18:39]

And it's what everyone... you know, that's some easy thing to say. But it's very true. And let me say something else in relationship to it, which is that Buddhism is meant to be... is to be taken seriously. What the sutras say is serious. It's not just some admonishment. It's not some florid description of reality. And it's not 90% kind of bull and 10% real. It's about 90% real. And the various stages it talks about are real, at least realer than most of them.

[19:51]

And if your own... if you find you can't agree with it, or it doesn't make sense in your categories, then your categories have to be changed. You understand what I mean? I mean, you're real and what you think is, of course, real. We're talking about being real. But it doesn't mean your reality can deny some other reality. It's somehow you have to be rejecting this and that, or this and that doesn't make sense to you. It means that you're limiting, that your reality doesn't include enough. So when you read the sutras, you know, and you can't accept or it doesn't make sense,

[21:02]

it's not because the sutras are wrong, it's because what you consider making sense is too limited. So you have to try to juggle your way of perceiving things. Or at least read them, this may be true, but I can't make sense of it now. But also, you know, if you have, as I talked about, when Dr. Abe was here a little bit, having Dr. Abe here reminded me of being with Suzuki Roshi when he gave lectures,

[22:18]

because I feel some real closeness with Dr. Abe, as I did with Suzuki Roshi, of course. And when Suzuki Roshi gave lectures or answered questions, sometimes I had to... I always tried to refrain from doing so, but sometimes I participated, as I did with Dr. Abe, and it felt very familiar to me to do so. Anyway, if you have some idea of a fixed reality, a repeatable universe, then you can't make sense of Buddhism. And if you have some idea this is literally true. But you see, everything that's expressed in Buddhism is a tentative explanation of what you can't say. So even some idea of reincarnation, or merit, or faith, we say in the ordination ceremony,

[23:31]

we say, we're going to have faith in such and such. And you start out, if you have a sort of scientific, rationalist bent, you start out in Buddhism because it doesn't have faith. And the more you practice, you see very clearly, even from a rationalistic or scientific point of view, how you end up with faith, and there's no other way to say it, and it ends up just like any other religion, with faith. And many things in Buddhism, there's no other way to say certain things, maybe reincarnation. And even if Dr. Abe is here, and he says, I don't believe in reincarnation, Dogen could not have believed in reincarnation.

[24:33]

That doesn't mean that Dr. Abe doesn't believe in reincarnation. Do you know that? Some person, anyway, let's not say Dr. Abe, some person, completely honest person. Because if you have some non-repeatable experience of reality, no matter what you say, it's wrong. So, in one place in himself, reincarnation, it's one of the most ancient ideas in all of civilization,

[25:39]

and recurs, and recurs, and recurs. And the same person who believes in reincarnation when he's 12, and doesn't believe in it from the time he's 20 to 60, believes in it again from 60 to 70. And not just because he's old, but because somehow his... some more thorough way of formulating what he says has come about. So, there's no way you can be sure about reincarnation. You can canvass all the Buddhists you want, and get regular opinions about it. But in our practice, the only way to find out about such things is through your own practice.

[26:40]

. How to... . How to enter into that private, non-repeatable self, which practices Buddhism, without fear, without anxiety, without needing reassurance, without questioning, this is too strange, I must be going crazy. You know, our perception of the world is so one-sided, and when we have some wider perception, we usually ignore it.

[27:54]

It makes us anxious, and it doesn't fit in with our plans. And generally, you have very web-like plans for what you are going to do with your life, and what you need to do, and also what seems to be satisfying with you, because if you don't have it, there's some big anxiety. And everything that doesn't fit into that web, you brush aside. And sometimes we have some kind of wider perception, but it occurs when you're feeling irritable or upset, and so you say, oh, I'm just upset. That's a strange thing to notice, and you put it aside. Or when you're very tired, you know, suddenly things look different to you, and I'm very tired,

[28:59]

and you don't notice. But to practice Buddhism, you need to have a confidence and state of mind, which can notice without ducking back, or out saying, whoops, that doesn't fit in, or this is scary, or I'm sick, or something. And your state of mind is one of your... If you're going to have priorities... I talked about this in the city for one whole lecture, making your state of mind a first priority, because generally you allow this and that to pile up and things to overlap, and pretty soon you're doing what you have to do,

[30:01]

but you've sacrificed your state of mind. And if you're going to practice Buddhism, you have to make your state of mind the first priority, and do things one at a time. And if it means cutting some things out, you cut them out. And if you make that as a decision, my state of mind is what I'm going to take care of, it gives you a very good way to notice what you should cut out. I just said such-and-such. After I said such-and-such, my state of mind was... I felt a little funny. But usually we want to say such-and-such so much because we're angry at somebody, or because it felt good to say that, or it fits in because later we want to say something else that leads into such-and-such, and then we can... Anyway. But if at the beginning you notice my state of mind...

[31:04]

So you decide, I'll make an effort not to say that kind of thing. All right. One of the first... things that characterizes our heart is... You know, our heart and Bodhisattva and Pratyekabuddha and various kinds of enlightened beings.

[32:08]

And the earliest, or the one that Theravada Buddhism emphasizes, maybe, is the our heart. At least Mahayana says it does. Anyway, the our heart is... The first thing he's done is he's extinguished outflows. And this is a... important idea in all the religions of India, extinguishing outflows. And this is closely related to your state of mind, noticing when your state of mind is disturbed. Or leaking, you know, you leak. So when your mind is distracted, you're leaking.

[33:16]

When you're not concentrated, you're leaking. Japan emphasizes the hara because you have some... If you emphasize here, you tend to stop your leakage. And extinguishing outflows or stopping leaking means... is... a kind of recognizable experience of practice, a recognizable experience of stopping your... stopping karma, stopping creating karma. So if you know what I mean when I say stopping outflows, then that's some way you can tell if you're practicing. Maybe for most of you that's one of the main ways you can tell

[34:25]

if you have some sense of... that. Of course, that's why we don't talk about... our practice, why we don't talk about... doksang, and why we don't talk about... other things in your practice, why we emphasize hidden practice. Partly it's just... to give you the sense of... what it means to prevent outflows. Outflows doesn't... can be looked at with two... I always make everything so clear and then I get embarrassed. Anyway, it can be looked at from two...

[35:28]

models, you know, two points of view. One is that you have some power or energy that you're accumulating or that you already have that you don't want to release. Sometimes Buddhism talks about it this way. But more accurately... it's like... it's like standing on one foot. You're not... you're not participating in all of... reality or you're not participating in... you're doing things in a one-sided way. So it's like suddenly lifting one foot off the ground and you feel... it's like that.

[36:37]

Suzuki Roshi used to speak about a soft mind. You should be more soft-minded. At first the expression is rather funny because we think of soft... soft-headed. And... it's a kind of elusive... phrase, soft mind. But I can give you another sort of too clear... hint... about what I mean. I can't... we can't in Buddhism, you know, give... at least from Zen way... because we want your experience... your practice to be so completely your own. We don't want to tell you anything.

[37:40]

And we don't want to even... don't want to give you any more than hints. Because... the usual mind, you know, unless we work out some other completely... complete practice based on... altering your usual mind, which is one way of doing it, Zen doesn't do that. If you have more than a hint, your usual mind... understanding in the usual way, goes the wrong direction. And even if it doesn't go the wrong direction, at least it conditions your experience. But if you... develop the ability to... concentrate... to stay with your situation...

[38:47]

As someone said yesterday, just working, just doing what you're working. You know, in our practice... we... just do what we're doing... and we let other people do... that with us. It's one of the meanings of being a priest. If you allow other people... completely to decide on... your lifestyle... your hairstyle... where you are. And so you just do whatever you're doing. And somebody will... something will happen... that you do something else and something else. Now, if you can just do what you're doing... the result is a kind of clarity. And... maybe some... non-leaking...

[39:50]

reality... where you begin to be... cognizant of a wider... world than you usually see... with some kind of blinder on... of distraction. But that's not what... Suzuki Roshi meant by... soft mind. Concentration is some... more concentrated, obviously... mind. But then you have to relax... inside your... your perceptions and mind and... you have to relax. But you can't relax. I mean, it's not something you can do. It's like... most of us... live in a rather flat world, actually. We have flat minds. And we perceive things in a flat... two-dimensional way, like pictures. So we tend to... think of things... rather like drawing things on...

[40:54]

paper. Anyway, if your... if your consciousness is flat like that... two-dimensional... there's no way you can get hold of it... and pull it out into a third dimension. There's nothing you can do, you know. But sometimes... as you exist... various things happen to you. And I'm not saying that's... something you should look for. I'm trying to give you some feeling of... Suzuki Roshi always talked about soft mind. How do you make your mind soft? You have to be ready to be soft, that's all. Sometime you may be... you may develop the ability... to have some concentration through your zazen. Then one day you'll feel very funny... some relaxed feeling.

[41:55]

If you brush it aside as, Oh, I'm sick. No, you stay... with it. It's coming. If you give up self-consciousness... see, your mind... you know, if a lot of your energy... is involved in being... self-conscious... then... that possibility of experience... is taken there... and not into what you're doing. But when you give up being self-conscious... that... becomes another dimension of what your experience is. Again, that's too clear. But do you get the idea? Well, I made it so simple...

[43:03]

I thought it was... I'm doing something wrong. Anyway, if we just limit ourselves... to three dimensions... actually, your experience is... more than three dimensions. But... if it's two-dimensional... and one dimension is taken up... with being self-conscious... if you stop being self-conscious... that third dimension... can be part of working on stones. Sometimes the world will be a toy, you know. Sometimes it will be... some magnificent, huge thing. Anyway, our... experience is not repeatable. It's repeatable... only when you maintain this self-consciousness. But how do you relax... and give up that need to... have an overall plan... and... a continuous self? Hmm.

[44:20]

I'm trying to give you some... encouragement... not to... look for what I'm talking about... but to give up your usual... ways of looking at things... to be willing to give them up. Naturally... you can't give up something that is... the way you have of thinking. But you can be willing to give it up... and to not be persistent... about it. When it occurs... your usual way of thinking... you notice that. But you... in your practice... try not to be dependent on it. So if Buddhism says... you know... don't seek outside yourself... or everything is transient... life is a dream... or nothing exists...

[45:45]

those are real... statements... which if you can't understand them... it doesn't mean you should reject them... nor does it mean you should look for some verification... from other people. You should... you know... your own experience... knows this already... because you are it... I mean you are the universe... you know... what are you doing? Do you feel what? Oh! In a nice way? There is another reality... that has nothing to do with life...

[47:02]

no reality... so then I get my reality... with other things... like the sutras... and that... I can't say... I love my reality... but somehow... anxious... about birth... about a week or two... and then... then I complain... and I say... I have to accept my reality... no matter how small it is... and what... I have to accept my reality... and I say... ok... fine... fine... then I'll be reading a study book... and I'll say... oh no... my reality is too narrow... Is our practice to accept our reality... or to forget reality altogether? Do you agree? Did you all hear what she said? Do you all already know what she said... before she said it? Well, that's one of the priorities you...

[48:03]

one of the things you have to... take as real in Buddhism... in order to practice... is that your reality... includes all those realities... and the fact that you're not conscious of it... or you feel constricted by it... is your problem... maybe... but it doesn't have anything to do... with the fact that... it doesn't mean that it's somewhere there... outside you... oh... ok... no... sort of... so you just have to come back to... whatever it is... and if it's constricted... you know... narrow... unwell... angry... schizophrenic... whatever it is... no matter how bad you characterize it...

[49:08]

you have to be willing to stay with it... for as long as you're alive... if you don't have that kind of spirit... as long as you have some little part of it that says... well, I really want it to be better... then you're in trouble... but it's almost impossible... to get rid of that little... I really want it to be better... how do you know how much strength you have? well, usually it's... simply we're not tough enough with ourself...

[50:11]

I mean, maybe... maybe we should all become faith buddhists... somewhat easier, perhaps... because Zen practice... Tsukiyoshi used to say... is a long iron road... and it requires some kind of... toughness... some kind of... okay... this... we know this much... you know... that my experience... nothing can happen outside my experience... this moment... this is all I know... if you want a little more than that... you know... it's very difficult to practice... so you have to... but you have to come to some...

[51:21]

decision... that no matter what... you're going to practice buddhism... and you have to make that decision... a lot of discomfort... what do you mean? we sit around all the time... this is very comfortable practice... no... it's true... I don't know what to say...

[52:27]

but anyway... as long as you have preferences... you can't really practice Zen... as long as your preferences count for you... if whatever anybody offers you is okay... or if they take it away it's okay... within that realm you can have preferences... but if you have real preferences... that's it... then you'll live in your preferences... and that's okay... that's a very pleasant way to live... but it's not... what we mean strictly by practicing Zen... David? I see that as you go through life... every situation... or maybe not every one... but most situations... within that... you just accept it... you know... what is laid out for you... I don't know... it seems to me... by the situations in your life...

[53:28]

your mind will always say... I'm in love... I'm happy... I like this... and that'll give me happiness... or... I don't like this... and that'll give me frustration... and that's something you're supposed to think... to experience... and within that realm... it's almost like you can... within that realm... you can choose... within that realm... you can choose... within that realm... you can choose happiness... and... these preferences do exist... Well, we... knowing preferences are so... powerful... we try to substitute some preferences...

[54:32]

for your preferences... Buddha... nice chanting... some lifestyle here... which is fairly pleasant... you know... a teacher... That's what I'm hearing... Well... you have to be willing to do what you dislike... if it's what you should do... Let me finish what I was saying... Anyway, we substitute...

[55:34]

for preferences... some other preferences... Buddha... teacher... Sangha... But those... But Buddha, Dharma, Sangha... me... teacher... whatever... don't really exist... There's only you... But one of the reverses of that... is the general criticism... that a lot of people have of Zen practice... and of Zen Center... which has already got... maybe... too... from the strict point of Zen... is maybe... too easy... The criticism of Zen Center is... Oh, the chanting is so colorless...

[56:35]

you know... Why don't we have a party... with a little... Hasidic or Sufi dancing... Some kind of feeling like that... Oh, that's more joyful... I can't speak for those religions... or other ways... but from the point of view of Zen... they only distract you from some... wider joy... some wider perception... which is not dependent on anything... which if you know... somebody can pick you up... and put you in a corner... and you can stay there quite quietly... for nine years... It may not be what's required of you... but it's in that realm... rather than the realm of some... dancing...

[57:36]

I mean... you know... we do exactly what we like to do... but you see... what we like to do usually is... if you... go out and try to follow... you know... yourself... if you go out and try to follow... exactly what you like to do... things get kind of... sticky... you know... for most of us anyway... so what we like to do... isn't so easy to find out... what you really want... and what you really want is to be Buddha... isn't it? It's true... and you should know that... and everything that's not Buddha... that's all... in work...

[59:12]

oh... how do you approach... you know... there are... thousands of ways to do everything... and... I'm always asking... all relative... like... you know... Well, you can either do what... people say... who seem to know... if you... if they're... part of practice here... and they seem to know... but... or you can work it out... for yourself... but the questions... that came up yesterday about work... when Les talked... were very interesting... on the one side... of course... you should be flexible... one situation... you should be able to work... do sloppy work... if it's necessary to do sloppy work... or quick work... on the other side... it's necessary to do careful work... but... after... yesterday... what struck me...

[60:13]

in the conversation... I mentioned in Choson yesterday... is... we tend to... equate... careful work... with slow work... and by contrast... in Japan, for instance... they don't equate careful work... with slow work... they equate... slow work... with learning work... but... fast work... I mean, actually... there's some speed... with which your energy... is just right... and with which your attention... is just right... which is quite fast... and you work quite fast... a master carpenter in Japan... does not work slowly... you know, as I've... the example Lenny... my brother-in-law has given me... I've never seen it done... but... the master carpenter... Naitokiji... who died... falling off... he went... while he was sick... and climbed this... rickety scaffolding... to inspect some joint... fell off it... and died... when he was 78 or something... but... but... Lenny has seen him... take a big log...

[61:13]

which has a complex joint on it... which is barely penciled... little indication... and with a hatchet... he cuts the whole thing out... in less than three minutes... and then... puts it right in place... big beam... and knows exactly... but his body knows... and when you're a carpenter in Japan... you spend the first... two years... I think it is... learning how to sharpen your tools... and they won't let you do anything else... literally... all you do is sharpen a few blades... I don't know whether the guy checks it... you know... every now and then... or it just wears down... anyway... that's literally all they let you do... but that's... doesn't mean that... I mean... in the process... you're going to have... these practical decisions... we have to finish this in a hurry... so we work faster... or I'm trying to learn...

[62:15]

how to do this carefully... so I'll do it slowly... but once you know it thoroughly... you do it fast... but generally we don't... the trouble with the kind of work... that we usually do... when we do it carefully... in order to do it carefully... we have to do it slowly... but we don't do it often enough... to learn how to do that carefully fast... you understand what I mean? and this is just simply a craft... tradition... Dr. Konze talks about... we don't know anything here... we have no scholarly tradition... we have no culture... and we have no craft... we have no intelligence... about how to do things... and it's true... I mean it's horrible... and it's true... but... you know... it goes back... I mean... Hunter Dupree... who's one of the great historians of science... in this country... he felt it went back... to the... colonial... immigrant... came here... and had to be a jack-of-all-trades...

[63:18]

and by being a jack-of-all-trades... you're, as they say... master of none... and the whole craft tradition was lost... and not only a craft tradition... of how to do things... but a whole... a subtleness... and a working... with body and state of mind... it's almost a mystical tradition in crafts... that we just don't... we don't have any inkling of... so we don't have any... and the ways in which you enter that space... seem tedious to us... and there's so much in Zen practice... that seems tedious to you... which is the essence of... our practice... the essence of the secret of our practice... and you just... it's tedious... that's all... one of the... one of the things about being... I'm talking a little long... I'm sorry... is that all right? I'm going to... I've... missed two or three times a lecture...

[64:22]

because Dr. Agra is here... and other people... I'm leaving after lecture... so... I'll talk a little more... if your legs can stand it... you can move if you want... sit any way that's comfortable... it makes it difficult for me... at a certain point I see you suffering... I don't mind your suffering... but I don't like to be the cause of it directly... you should suffer actually... anyway... one of the important things about... being a priest... you know... one side of it is you... is initiation... and you take a vow... and you... you put yourself in a relationship... in an agreement with yourself... and with others... which help you hold that vow... another side of it is...

[65:27]

if you're going to take care of your space... and I talked earlier about sitting in a line... and knowing where you are on your cushion... and how you are in a relationship with a divider... if you're going to take care of your space... being a priest is a kind of... getting... not tricking... but getting a person... to be in a situation... where he takes care of his space... in a way you can't explain to him... so you give him robes and pieces of cloth... to tie around his body... and you give him things to do... he's supposed to do every day... chant certain things... or do certain things... and it seems tedious... particularly at first...

[66:27]

there's so many... things you're supposed to do... exactly how you take your robe off... exactly how you wear your robe... in certain situations... and many of the things don't... as they've been inherited from the tradition... don't make exactly sense for us... even in terms of practice... because they don't work with the rest of our life... so some modification will go on here... but the basic idea of... how to practice with your space... is essential... and it just happens... it's very difficult... to do that... if you change your clothes every day... if you wear different clothes... if you make decisions... well, this looks nice... and today I'll wear that... because they'll like that... and the last three days I'll wear that... so I'll change it...

[67:28]

when you're into that... you're in the world of light... and not darkness... so you want the same thing... to wear every day... anybody who gets into practicing... with their space... even if they're a layman... tends to dress the same way... once you know that... you can change... and wear something different... but you've got to know... that area... that space... and... that's an essential way... to stop outflows... is that when you have that practice... of taking care of your space... you begin to live in... a different space...

[68:31]

outflows... maybe means... that the energy... the energy you have... to be present... you're not using... so it escapes... and in the... your activity... and your... through body, speech and mind... you lose... your energy all the time... and you get yourself... messed up... so we have some practice... with our body... with our space... and we have some practice... of... what we refrain... from talking about... or how we notice... when we talk about certain things... it's... what happens... and we have some mental practice... when you stop... outflows mentally... we say... it's samadhi... it's samadhi... it only looks like...

[69:47]

don't do this... don't do that... don't do such and such... it only looks like... we're telling you not to do... something... as Suzuki Yoshi said... in a wonderful way... he said... you're all right... as you are... right... but then you want to do something... but you don't need to do it... so I say... don't do it... just as you are is okay... so then you want to do... don't do that... don't do that... it sounds like... don't do that... but he means... already it's okay... at first it sounds like... you're negative... negative... negative... against the usual self... it just happens that... our practice... the door through our practice... is through this kind of... don't... and... anxiety... and imperfection... okay...

[70:51]

the other question... yeah... and... sobriety... and... trans-identity... those all seem to me to be... conjectures that we're... repeatedly... exposed... it's like through the looking glass though... you know... it's... it's like... the more you...

[71:52]

get rid of things... the more you get out of some... narrow structured world... we can say oh... now you're more out of it... more out of it... or more into it... or something... it's not really a stage... you know... but to help you practice... we notice certain things... if you start out and you say... you don't know what samadhi is... right... and you can read all kinds of descriptions of samadhi and... it's your mind is completely blank... or your mind is... completely full... or includes everything... or whatever we say... samadhi is like... it's like... tasting water... you know it's wet... so you practice and practice... and... eventually you say... I've been practicing so much... and... samadhi must be included in my experience...

[72:55]

maybe this is samadhi... but when you say this is samadhi already... it's not... you're interfering with your experience... but if I look at you... I can say... ah... she's noticed... she's now willing to look at her experience in a certain way... we can say that's a stage... but that's no more than that... do you see what I mean... it's that... your... formulations... your own ideas... your own constructed things... have gone through another construction... but a construction which admits more practice... so we say... ah... now they're... she or he is... more willing to practice... or more willing to include... what's happening... as their life... okay... blank... ah...

[73:57]

we can talk about... he never had practice... one of the things... I've become aware of some... different stages... it's no more... education... I've been... I've been... stay with it... try to stay with it... you can see... I'm not trying to... I'm not trying to... and...

[74:57]

one... part of the TDM... sure... TDM... you know... maybe I mean any... thing you don't want to... put up with... but... if you have the... if you have some experience in Zazen... and you try to hold it... that's not so good... just... if you have some experience in Zazen... or in your life... or whatever you do... whatever your experience is... moment after moment... you just... you don't do anything... there it is... that's all... and if you find yourself... trying to make it stay... or trying to go away... and it's involuntary... to try to make it stay...

[75:58]

or go away... then... that's all there is... but then if it goes away... and you say... well, I'll try better next time... that's wrong... there's no need to... formulate a position... about next time... the only position you need to know... have... is to be ready... and sometimes... being good for experience... by that I mean... mostly not being frightened by it... or closing it off... willing to be... there... even for... negative experience... and if... if you find yourself closing it off... then you can say... it's true... you can have the position of... well, I'll try to be more willing... that kind of position... maybe we need to have...

[76:58]

if we're going to practice... yes, Dennis? I found... I found that... the height of anxiety... I'm saying... it's OK, it's OK, it's OK... and then I start saying... believe me... if a really anxious person... would give me some reassurance... that it's OK... I would believe it... it's not really reassuring... but anxiously reassuring... that's true... but... if you want to be analytical about it... you can say... but I've projected this image... of this person... who might be anxious... and a projected image... is not necessary... but...

[78:00]

still... when you're anxiously reassuring yourself... not to be anxious... you know... that's not quite the same... as just being anxious... and saying it's OK... is not quite the same as... being anxious... it's not OK to be anxious... but we're anxious... it's not OK... it's OK to be not OK... you know... if you're... all I'm saying is... if your... attempt to... to stay with the anxiety... is an attempt to get... to make it better... maybe we have to do that... actually... it's very uncomfortable to be anxious... and if you can learn... certain techniques... which tend to... reduce anxiety... you should use them... because anxiety is some artificial state... when it's completely groundless... but...

[79:03]

our experiences of... anything that... anything... any experience you can have... any experience a human being... is capable of having... is there for some reason... anyway... we can practice with this kind of idea... all right... if some experience takes over... like some compulsive thinking... or some experience takes over... and there's no flexibility... and it pushes you around... then... that means something's... something's wrong... usually... that means that... the experience... and the anxiety...

[80:05]

and the thing is triggered by... some... small conception of ourself... so... the problem isn't the experience... but the limited conception of ourself... so if you're... a person who's practicing Buddhism... and his practice has been thorough... probably knows almost anything... anybody experiences... but he's not caught by them... they come and go... and one of the most... common... ways is you can't talk about dreaming anymore... for instance... all your experiences are accessible to you... dreaming is just some... visual... story... which you allow to happen... or change... or watch... so one thing you can do... and some Buddhist sects do do is...

[81:05]

to train you how to get control of your dreams... but in our Zen practice... such... awakeness comes about... but if I say that... then all of you will start... sort of... fiddling with your dreams or something... you know... I don't want to get you on some trip... but also... I don't want you to be complacent... about your... life and practice... okay... go... it's like... when you say... we should decide to practice Buddhism... we should decide to go... it seems like... that's really more of a... cellular thing... than actually... something you do with your... conscious mind... maybe like... you know... the journey takes a lot... a lot of steps... to follow... you keep coming back... because your body... keeps learning... so... one thing...

[82:08]

I noticed was... on some of the walls... there was a statement... I don't know if I... can pronounce it correctly... and it says that... we shouldn't talk back... we shouldn't... use angry words... to anyone... even if... you know... we are chopping off our limbs... one by one... so my question is... how can... have practice come about... to be like that? it seems like... that practice you know... you say... I'm going to practice Buddhism... but it seems... some little thing comes up... and I need to be serious about that... I'm already distracted... well... the vow... for most of you...

[83:16]

if you keep practicing Zazen... at some point... you recognize... that your body... or something... has decided... that you're going to keep practicing Zazen... and Zen... and you notice it... this means... you've already taken the vow... but for some people... it's useful... because your mind can be a tool... to take the vow... to take... to accept certain priorities... intellectually... that you can't practice or comprehend... but then base your life on it... for example... I shouldn't... doesn't make sense... to be involved in minor preferences... about this and that... so whatever is put in front of me... I eat... and you can create some situation...

[84:18]

to allow yourself... to have some practice of that... by... when the gruel comes... never putting salt on it... and finding the taste... the salt that's in it... it doesn't mean... you can't put salt on it... it doesn't make any difference... if you put salt on it or not... but if you want to try... a practice... to see where you are... as far as preferences are concerned... and how your mood is tied to... I mean, my God... the gruel doesn't taste right... and it puts us in a funny mood... for an hour or two... I mean, how weak we are... I mean, it's just gruel... Blanche? Blanche? Let me... excuse me... Catherine? When?

[85:19]

You can't imagine any? You're going to be Sheikah... this summer... or you are already... a little bit this summer... There's a party of ten... and they're in the office... and their room isn't ready... and you've got... three or four minutes before... to get it ready... and you may have to be... a little sloppy... you may not have... all the lanterns clean... I don't know... there are many situations... where it's required... to just do things... the best you can... under those circumstances... but... but... sloppiness in general... is... if you have the opportunity... to not be sloppy... if you throw something... to the wastebasket... normally you should put it... in the wastebasket... but if you throw it... you're already being... and if you're not very accurate...

[86:29]

you miss it... and you just leave it there... and you do have time... to go up and move it... but yet you really want to stay... with your book... that's being sloppy... in a way that disturbs... your state of mind... because your state of mind... is what counts... so to hell with the book... get up... you're moving through... a beautiful space... to put it in the wastebasket... yes... Ricky's not supposed to tell... how often I miss the wastebasket... I've got a question... about scholarship... in relation to people... like Dr. Colander... and... it seems like... Science Center...

[87:29]

is now more open... to... actual study... I mean... you know... the tradition of them... kind of says... it's... you know... studying is an egregious practice... they don't say that... there isn't this... in my understanding... in traditional Zen... there isn't the emphasis... on studying... as if it was one of the... rules set... ok... I'll stay with him... anyway... I'm confused about... scholarship... because... on one hand... it's two things... you know... and on the other hand... it's... the experience... I've had with it... especially the relationship... community... is... small... but... seems like it... takes ideas... that are very simple... and makes a big deal out of it... and...

[88:30]

I remember once... just having this flash... reading something... and I was getting into it... it was so complicated... and I had been studying that... for a while... and all of a sudden I realized... they made me think... that this thing... was such a big deal... that I knew all the time... it's just a simple thing... and... so my confusion... is... I'm thinking... they take all these things... and they... sound very... scholarly about them... and they kind of... trick you into... doing more research... and more... and... taking this very simple thing... and making it into such... a big deal... so I don't know... I have that... feeling maybe... that's sitting there... I don't understand... Specifically what... incident... what... what thing you're talking about... they make a big deal... I don't know...

[89:31]

you have to show me the specific thing... and I'd have to... I don't know exactly what you mean... I mean I do... and I don't... because... in some cases... they make a big deal... something... so that you can find out it's simple... and sometimes... it's just some scholar... running at the mind... or... it goes on and on... for various reasons... and... you see... there's so many instances... where... they take some item... and they repeat it... and [...] repeat it... in various ways... but often that repetition... is based on... on a... concept of... how you learn... and be things... by doing it over and over again... and by memorizing... and it's made for a culture... and of people who memorize... so when we're reading it... it's a different experience... but I mean... there's so many instances like that... I don't know which one... which one... you have that experience over...

[90:31]

as far as scholarship is concerned... Soto is more friendly... has traditionally been in Japan... more friendly to scholars... than to... than Rinzai... Soto was willing to accept... the scholar's findings... that Bodhidharma was... a doubtful historical personage... before Rinzai was... but... Rinzai requires... much more scholarship... than Soto... so... there's different kinds of scholarship... there's accepting what... scholarships do... by modern... processes of... verifying certain facts... and dates by... linguistic analysis... etcetera... but then there's... just the amount of learning... required to... to practice Buddhism...

[91:32]

and if you want to know... how much scholarship is required... talk to Dana Fraser... about his practice of being... five years... studying with a Rinzai teacher... you have to know Japanese well... all kinds of aspects of Japanese... you have to know Chinese well... you have to know... Tang Dynasty Chinese... you have to go into... background cases... analysis of kanji... it's very complicated... and... when you're working on a koan... you have to be spontaneous... you know... so they say... and you go and you give your answer... and you have to be present... when you give your answer... but in the monastery... the monks... after they... have responded... with enough authenticity... for the teacher to say... okay... do something next... give me a capping verse... or something... you find the monks... who are in that stage... hopping up from Zazen... rushing to the toilet... standing in the light... reading through scholarly books... you know... poems and commentaries... and then putting the book down... and running in to give their capping verse...

[92:33]

we don't do that... but... and then... as you know... Suzuki Roshi spent most of his... he feels his real teacher... was... Kichizawa Roshi... who he studied with... and he was a scholar and a Roshi... for years and years and years... decades... so... when you say... Zen Center hasn't been so interested in that... it's one... it's been an antidote... to our usual idea of scholarship... to our usual idea of scholarship... to it's been... [...]

[93:04]

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