Good evening. So I want to continue the talks I've been giving about early Japanese Buddhism. Tonight, I want to talk about someone who was after Dogen. Muso Soseki was his name. He lived from 1275 to 1380. So he died almost 100 years after Dogen did. He was a very important Rinzai Zen master. And he's very interesting in a number of ways. So first, just his name, Muso Soseki. Later he was called Muso Kokushi, which means national teacher, so he was given that title.

[01:04]

But Muso means dream window. So I talked a while ago about the importance of dreams in medieval Japanese Buddhism. So his name means dream window. He was a window into the dream world. And So Seki is taken from two ancient Japanese, Chinese teachers, one of them, Seki. is taken from Sekito, or Shuto, who wrote the Song of the Grass Hut we just chanted, as well as the Harmony of Difference and Sameness. He's a predecessor of the Xiaodong or Shoto lineage, even though Muso, Sokuseki, is important in the Rinzai lineage. actually at a very young age, entered the monastery at age eight, and at age 13 was ordained at Todai-ji Monastery, a very major monastery in Nara, originally as a Shingon monk.

[02:23]

And I'm gonna be talking about him from this book, Dialogues in a Dream, by Tom Kirchner, And I wanted to say a little bit about Tom. He's the same age as me, and Tom went to Japan the first time around the same time as I did, when we were 20. I didn't know him then, but after going around just to temples and very much appreciating the Buddha statues and gardens and so forth, some of the same temples that he did. I didn't know that I could have anything to do with that world and came back to the States and four years later met my first teacher, Japanese Soto Zen priest in New York City. Tom figured out that he could get into The Rinzai Monastery at Keninji, which is actually where Muso later practiced and where Dogen had practiced before and after he went to China.

[03:36]

And Tom eventually was a monk in the monks hall there, and at Nansenji, and Todaiji, and now he's at Tenryu-ji, which is Muso Soseki's important monastery. So Tom has translated not just Muso Soseki, but also a wonderful Rinzai koan collection called Tangling Vines. and also the record of Rinzai or Linji. Anyway, so very different paths, but he's a friend and a very nice guy and a wonderful translator. Anyway, Muso Soseki is important and really interesting for a number of reasons. his life illustrates a dynamic between traditional practice and what we would now call social engagement.

[04:40]

Once he entered into monasteries and trained in monasteries and trained with a couple of major Rinzai teachers, he spent literally decades going to remote mountains and practicing with a few fellow monks. And then many other monks would come to study with him. And so he would split and go to more remote mountains because he wanted to just practice, you know, not quite as a hermit, but on his own. And he wasn't interested in having a lot of students or being famous or anything like that. He just wanted to fully investigate the Dharma and study. So literally for decades he did this. And then, and I'll go into some more of the details of his life, but at some point, well actually in, it's kind of a sad story for him, in around 13, what was it, 1325,

[06:04]

He was finally, 1317 was the first time he was forced to go to a temple in northern Kyoto, and he really kind of hid himself there. But then eventually he was forced to go to, by the emperor, to go to Kyoto. become the abbot of Nansenji, one of the most important Rinzai monasteries in Kyoto. And he was agreed to do it because the emperor said, well, you just have to tell me about Zen. You don't have to teach a lot of monks. But anyway, he ended up becoming the abbot of this important monastery. And there was a lot of political intrigue or intrigue between the emperor and the shoguns. This was the Kamakura period when capital had moved to Kamakura and samurai class were in charge through the shoguns in Kamakura and he ended up being perhaps the most influential medieval Japanese Zen teacher after spending decades trying to hide away in remote mountains because he

[07:17]

became an intermediary between these major influential figures, all of whom came to him for teaching. So it's interesting because in Asian Buddhist history and East Asian history, what we would call social engagement was really just advising personally, was really having personal influence over warlords and trying to advise them in a more peaceful direction. So anyway, so there's that part of Mousseau's career that's interesting to us and this, this dynamic between just studying the Dharma and getting involved in the world, which he tried to avoid and then ended up being the most influential of all Japanese teachers in that regard.

[08:28]

So that's one aspect. I mean, there's also his teaching. He ended up having many, many, many, I think, 1,300 disciples, something like that. But also he was a major zen garden designer, so I'll talk more about that later. So Kyoto, the capital of Japan where I lived for a couple of years. is mostly Rinzai. There are a few Soto places there, but the famous temples, there are a series of huge Rinzai monastic complexes, many of which have important, beautiful gardens, and I'll talk more about the garden art there, which reflect many aspects of Zen aesthetics. I was talking about some of those Japanese and Zen aesthetics in terms of poetry in some of the talks in the last few months.

[09:34]

But I want to say something about that in terms of garden design and landscape. So I'll come back to that. In terms of, again, going back to And I'll also read some of Muso Suzuki's teachings. But going back to his biography, he first was a Shingon monk at 1292 at age 18, ordained at Todai-ji in Nara. started studying, then entered Keninji, as I said, and started studying with his Zen teacher, who had also been formerly a Shingon, Tantric Vajrayana monk, Japanese Vajrayana. And just to hit some of the highlights of this, well, there's a story about how he, his orientation to practice, which is interesting.

[10:40]

So he So he talked to one of his first teachers, a well-known teacher named Yishan. And just to make a much longer story short, he told Yishan that he had finally understood that that which comes from outside the gate is not the house treasure. that one has to study inside. But then he said to Ishan, I still have not clarified the matter of self. Master, please directly point the way. Ishan answered, our school has no words or phrases and nothing to transmit to anyone. That may be so, responded Muso.

[11:58]

That wasn't really his name yet, but that's his name later. But please be compassionate and at least teach me an expedient means, a skillful means, to realize the way. And his teacher Yishun said, there are no skillful means, nor is there any compassion. So that was all that Yishun would say to Muso after that. Then Muso went to a different teacher who said to him, if you wish to attain enlightenment, you must directly investigate the self. So that's what he proceeded to do in many ways that became his practice. He said to his next teacher, even the Buddhas and the ancestors cannot explain original nature, but if one perseveres in clarifying it, one cannot fail to understand.

[13:17]

Thus, one may take every opportunity to practice. Still, desire for the way cannot overcome the feelings. When the mind moves, one loses oneself in the surrounding circumstances. Thus, from today, I will make no distinction between self and circumstances." As the Buddha said, waking and sleeping are the same. Remembering and forgetting are one. So he did some canon. for our purification ceremonies and proceeded. And that was part of his journey to investigate the self. So these are stories of his wandering. And after that, again, as I mentioned, he spent a long time wandering around to different teachers and then wandering around to remote mountains, he met a teacher, a famous teacher named Wu Xue, who was actually a Rinzai teacher who came from China.

[14:31]

Wu Xue was concerned about his about his taste for solitude and isolation. And Urshen was so to keep company with like-minded seekers and warrant him that his duty to repay the benevolence of the Buddha by transmitting the way is not something that can be accomplished alone. So as he continued his wandering, he was always accompanied by some. Anyway, he continued like this for a long time until, as I mentioned, until finally in 1325, so he would have been then 50 years old. urged by the Emperor Godaigo to come to become the Abbot of Nansenji, which is probably the foremost, the number one.

[15:45]

I mean, they actually have levels and ranks, the number one Zen temple in Japan. And Muso refused, he said he didn't want to do that, but formal invitations were made and finally he accepted. So this pattern continued for a while. So part of the context then, there was a kind of feud between Godaigo, the emperor, and a retired emperor, Hanazono, who was from a different line. The politics of this time was very complicated. There were two lines of emperors who were conflicting, and two lineages, and they had finally made an arrangement. that they would alternate every 10 years. There'd be 10 years from one lineage, then somebody from the other lineage would take on for 10 years.

[16:47]

But Godeigo was sounding like he did not want to give up his position. So this happens. Very autocratic leaders don't want to give up their position. We see this more recently, too. Anyway. Musso was in the middle of this because he was asked to teach by various of these leaders. So this conflict. At this point, the capital was in Kamakura. The capital had moved from Kyoto to Kamakura, which is a city a little bit south of what's now Tokyo, which is why it's called the Kamakura period. And the actual rulers were not the emperors anymore, but the samurai families, the shoguns, who had made Kamakura their home.

[17:51]

So there was also conflict between Godaigo The and the. Kamakura rulers. There was also rivalry within the Rinzai school. So this was all stuff that Muso was trying to avoid. There was another major Rinzai teacher named Shukō Myōchū, better known as Daito Kokushi, who founded Daitoguchi, another one of the great monasteries in Kyoto. Anyway, at some point, Muso was asked to go and become the teacher in monasteries in Kamakura. He tried to decline, but eventually he went. So he became a teacher of some of the shoguns in Kamakura. And he, again, he tried to avoid this, but he became the abbot of Engakuji, which is one of the most important temples in Kamakura.

[19:01]

So he's in his 50s now. Eventually, there was this conflict between Godaigo and the Kamakura shoguns started a war, 1331 to 1333. So Muso was sort of in the middle of this, but he also, he tried to be neutral, but he was actually a spiritual advisor for people on both sides. So it was, so he had a lot of influence. And eventually, Muso, Doko Daiko was successful in getting Muso to move back to Kyoto in 1333. And then in 1334, he made Muso Abbot of Nanzenji, which was, for a year, which was the, again, the most important temple, Rinzai temple in Japan.

[20:01]

At the end of that year is when he was given his name, Muso Kokushi. Meanwhile, within the Godaigo, camp there was a rivalry between some of his generals, Godaigo's generals, the two brothers, Takuji Ashikaga and Tadashi Ashikaga. And they ended up having a war with Godaigo and overthrew him. So they founded a new government, which started the Muromachi period. So there's the Kamakura period, then the Muromachi period from 1336. And Godaigo fled to Mount Hiei, where the Tendai temple was, and then further south to Mount Yoshino. So again, Muso was a teacher of both Godaigo and one of the Ashikaga brothers, Tadayoshi, became his disciple.

[21:07]

So he was caught in the middle of all of this. All of them went to him for spiritual advice and he managed to negotiate that somehow so that he didn't cut off his head, which might have happened. So, okay. In the middle of all this, Muso just settled in Kyoto and became abbot of several temples, including Saiho-ji, which is known as the Kokodera, the moss temple now, and Tenryu-ji, which became a very important temple. That was established after Godaigo died. And it was established as a memorial for Godaigo, because they didn't want Godaigo's spirit to come and ravage the capital.

[22:12]

Because there was this idea, very common in medieval Japan, that if somebody who is exiled or punished dies, their ghost will come and cause earthquakes and famine and fires. So this temple was built to to honor Godaigo and after Muso tried to avoid becoming the abbot but eventually he was forced to. So that leads to talking about gardens because Muso Soseki designed a couple of very famous gardens. The background to talking about landscape gardens. In Japan, until modern times, they didn't have a word for nature. Because everything is nature.

[23:12]

But there's a word that we translate as landscape, but it literally means sansui, mountains and waters. And one of the arts that came from China but was really developed in Japan was the art of garden design. And it was very much developed, not exclusively, but it was developed a lot in Zen temples as a kind of form of contemplation. And originally, so there were miniature landscapes with mountains and waters using Initially, literally water and rocks. So I'm going to pass around some pictures from Tenryu-ji. Tenryu-ji means heavenly dragon temple. So this was a large temple, a large garden that Muso Soseki designed. And there's a lake, a fairly large lake, in the form of the Chinese character shin, or kokoro, which means mind or heart.

[24:21]

So the lake itself is shaped. I mean, it's all very designed. But then there's also rocks that imitate the waterfall and inlets and kind of islands using rocks. So it's rocks and water and shrubs. And so you can pass those around. None of the pictures show the whole thing, but you can see elements of it. Later on, there's very famous Zen gardens are called Karasansui, which means dry landscapes. And that's what the raked gravel around rocks, which are made to mimic, the gravel mimics streams or lakes, and then the rocks mimic mountains, so it's an image of mountains and waters.

[25:22]

And the Saiho-ji garden that Muso Soseki built didn't have gravel, so that was a later development. But here's some pictures of the very famous moss garden. But you can see rocks which seem to look like mountains. So it's a large garden that's kind of like a landscape. The moss is like water. So they're very beautiful. And later on, they developed these literally rock and gravel gardens. So I want to read a little bit about what Muso Soseki says about gardens. So he said, some people use landscape gardens to ward off sleepiness and boredom as an aid in their practice of the way.

[26:26]

This is something truly noble and is not at all the same as the delight that ordinary people take in gardens. However, since such people still make a distinction between gardens and the practice of the way, they cannot be called true way followers. Then there are those who regard mountains, rivers, grass, trees, tiles, and stones to be their own original natures. Their love for gardens may resemble worldly affection, but they employ that affection in their aspiration for the way, using as part of their practice the changing scenery of the grasses and trees throughout the four seasons. One who can do this is truly an exemplar of how a follower of the way should consider a garden. Therefore, it cannot be said that a love of gardens is necessarily a bad thing or necessarily a good thing.

[27:30]

In gardens themselves, there is no gain or loss. Such judgments occur only in the human mind." So these gardens, and Kyoto is filled with these gardens and Zen temples, some of them, again, like Muso's, where there's literally water. and moss and shrubbery and rock structures that sort of mimic mountain ranges or mountains or islands. And then there's the dry gardens where there's these that are sort of more abstract, they're like abstract abstract art gardens where there's gravel, sometimes rigged gravel around rocks. But they're outside and they change in the different weather. When there's snow it's different. some flowering in the spring. So it's very seasonal and sometimes when you sit and look at them, you don't walk through them, you sit on a veranda and just contemplate them and often there's some background scenery from a

[28:37]

from a mountain nearby that's part of how they're designed. So they're very much, they're not wild nature, they're very much, I don't know, not manicured exactly, but they're very much constructions, artistic constructions. So anyway, I wanted to say something about that because he was important in terms of that. So I wanna close by just reading some of his, some of the short talks from this Dialogues in a Dream, which is one of his major works, which were all responses to questions by Ashikaga Tadayoshi, who became his disciple and was the samurai who was actually one of the rulers in the Muromachi period, but also was very much of a Zen student. He has a few talks in a row that are about compassion.

[29:47]

So there's a question at the beginning that Tadayoshi asks. So the question, unless one has liberated oneself, one cannot liberate others. What sense does it make, then, to defer one's own liberation and first cultivate virtue for the sake of other beings? Musa said, sentient beings are lost in the round of samsara because their attachment to self causes them to seek fame and profit, creating various types of bad karma. However, if you forget yourself and arouse the desire to benefit all beings, then great compassion stirs within you and silently unites with Buddha mind. Then, even if you do not cultivate the virtues for your own sake, perfect virtue naturally accrues to you, and even if you do not Seek the Buddha way for your own sake. The Buddha way is quickly realized. Those who seek liberation for themselves only are Hinayana in spirit. Even if they cultivate infinite virtues, they are unable to realize Buddhahood, even for themselves, much less lead others to liberation.

[30:51]

Among those beings who arouse the bodhisattva mind, there is a difference between bodhisattvas advanced in compassion and bodhisattvas advanced in wisdom. Bodhisattvas advanced in compassion are those who vow to liberate all sentient beings before themselves, attaining the Buddha way. Bodhisattvas advanced in wisdom are those who seek to attain the Buddha way themselves before liberating all sentient beings. Although bodhisattvas of the latter type resemble the followers of the two vehicles, the Sravakas and Pratyekabuddhas pre-bodhisattvas, In that they seek their own liberation, they do so for the purpose of saving all other sentient beings, and thus they possess the bodhisattva mind. Although we distinguish between bodhisattvas advanced in compassion and bodhisattvas advanced in wisdom, there's no difference between the two in their aspiration to liberate all sentient beings.

[31:55]

They are the same in that every merit they cultivate and every practice that they engage in is directed towards this goal. So that's talking about the difference between being advanced in wisdom and advanced in compassion. The next one, he talks about three types of compassion. So the question from Tadayoshi, the writings of the Zen masters recommend that we first seek to awaken our own minds And then, after having dealt with remaining relations and habits, then we extend our concern to others. If this is so, would it not contradict the teaching of the bodhisattva's vow as to liberate others before attaining liberation for themselves? Musa Soseki responded, there are three types of compassion. The first is compassion directed towards sentient beings. The second is compassion based on the dharma.

[32:56]

And the third is compassion without an object. Compassion directed towards sentient beings is the type of compassion that regards sentient beings suffering in the cycle of birth and death as actually existing, and that strives to liberate these beings from the world of delusion. This is the compassion of the Hinayana bodhisattva. Although it is superior to the aspiration of the Sravakas and Pratyekabuddhas, who are concerned only with liberation for themselves, it is nevertheless a substantialist view that adheres to the concept of benefit. And thus, it is not true compassion. It is what the Vimalakirti Sutra criticizes as sentimental compassion, compassion marked by affection and false views. Second, dharma-based compassion, which clearly perceives the illusory nature of all sentient beings and non-sentient existence that arises through dependent origination is an illusory compassion that reaches illusory dormitories to liberate illusory sentient beings.

[34:00]

This is the compassion of the Mahayana Bodhisattva. Although it no longer entertains substantialist views and therefore is unlike sentimental compassion, this type of compassion is still not true compassion since it adheres to the concept of non-substantiality. Objectless compassion, third, occurs when, following the realization of enlightenment, the compassion that is an inherent virtue of Buddha nature manifests itself and functions naturally to liberate all sentient beings, even when there is no conscious striving to do so. It is like the moon, which equally casts its reflection on water everywhere. Thus, in spreading the Dharma, there is no distinction between teaching and not teaching, and in liberating beings, There is no notion of benefit and no benefit. This is true compassion. Those who practice compassion directed towards sentient beings, or compassion based on dharma, are obstructed by such compassion and cannot realize objectless compassion.

[35:07]

This is what is meant by the maxim, minor compassion hinders great compassion. The Chinese Zen master Baizhang Weihai had the same thing in mind when he warned, do not be greedy for petty gains and merits. This is what the Zen masters mean in their teaching on compassion. So I'm going a little over time, but why don't you read a couple more, at least. The next one is called Mahayana compassion. Tadayoshi asks, why do you disparage sentimental compassion when it is by recognizing the actual suffering of beings in the cycle of birth and death that the spirit of compassion arises? If one regards all sentient beings as illusory, how can one feel compassion? Musa Soseki said, there are different kinds of beggar in the world. Some beggars are born into outcast households and are low in status from the start.

[36:08]

Others are born into aristocratic households but fall into poverty owing to unexpected circumstances. Of these two types of beggar, aristocrats who fall into poverty usually arouse deeper feelings of sympathy than those who are poor from the start. The compassion of the Bodhisattva is similar to this. Sentient beings are originally one with the Buddhas, with no characteristics of birth and death. But should a single deluded thought arise, then out of that no birth and no death appears, like a dream or a phantom, the form of birth and death. Mahayana bodhisattvas view all sentient beings as one would aristocrats who have unexpectedly fallen into poverty. In this, they differ from Hinayana bodhisattvas who believe or to be actual such a being sinking in the sea of samsara and thus give rise to compassion marked by sentimental affection and false views. So I would just comment on this. I've just been reading these, and there's a lot of questions and comments we might have, but this is a little bit like the Lotus Sutra talking about.

[37:17]

the prodigal son falling into, who's actually, has sons, who's a metaphor for sons and daughters of Buddhas who actually fall into poverty, but actually are children of Buddha from the beginning. I marked a couple more of these to read. I'll read just one more. about what Musa Suseki says is the true meaning of zazen. The question is, the ancient masters teach us that zazen is of no benefit if one is unclear in applying the mind. Thus some people claim that it is useless for ignorant people to sit in meditation. Is there anything to what they say? This is a little long. I'll read parts of it.

[38:20]

The reason the master spoke in this way is to correct the efforts of those who aspire to awaken to the one great matter, but never seek out an able teacher, sitting instead in an absent-minded manner and believing that this is Zazen. They were not saying that ignorant people gain nothing from Zazen. What would it profit a person to avoid meditation and spend his life in ignorance on the grounds that sazan is of no benefit if one is unclear in applying the mind? Entering the Buddhadharma is not a matter of a single lifetime's practice. Those born with superior capacities that allow them to realize sudden enlightenment are those who in previous lives have persevered in the practice of zazen, even though they were unclear about it. Those who in this life continue in their meditation, despite a lack of clarity, will in subsequent lives be people who gain 1,000 insights in a single word. Other people say that zazen is a difficult practice beyond the reach of ordinary people.

[39:24]

and that it is therefore more appropriate for such people to engage in easier, more relative practices, such as reading sutras, reciting Dharanis, or chanting the name of Buddha. Sutras tell us, however, that if one's aspiration is wrong, then all practices are vain. However, relative and absolute practices may differ, but any practice, if done for the wrong reason, will produce nothing more than karmic causes for rebirth, in the three realms of existence. Conversely, a person with the right aspiration in following the Mahayana can engage in any practice without error. Nevertheless, it would be a mistake to assume that the practice of zazen is something unusual. And therefore, it would be better to start with more relative, easier practices. To say that zazen is an unusual practice reveals misunderstanding of its inner meaning. Zazen is not peculiar to the Zen school.

[40:25]

It is taught in all of the exoteric and esoteric schools, as well as in Hinayana and non-Buddhist traditions, although the way that Zazen is understood in these various paths vary in some way. Zazen in the non-Buddhist paths may differ with regard to whether it is defiled or undefiled in nature, but it is the same in that the essence of the practice is to keep the body still and not give rise to thought. In any event, it is an error to assume that Zazen is a practice limited to the Zen school simply because it has disappeared in most other schools with the coming of the age of the later Dharma. This was the reason why in that period there were Pure Land and Nichiren and other things. Anyway, just to finish this, Zazen in the Zen school is not about stilling the body and suppressing the mind. So one need not dismiss sitting toward the wall and letting go of thoughts as a difficult practice.

[41:28]

Zazen does not involve contemplation of doctrinal principles. So one cannot claim to lack the intelligence for it. Zazen requires no wealth. So poverty is no hindrance to its practice. Zazen requires no physical strength. So even the weak can do it. The Buddha Dharma does not conflict with the human passions. cannot say one is too worldly to practice it. So that's a little bit of his teachings. And sorry, that was a lot in one talk. But I'll stop. And if anybody wants to pick up any pieces of that, comments, questions, responses, please feel free. Yes, Jen. Right, that from some ultimate point of view, from one ultimate point of view, that everything is illusory, that everything is empty, that reality is simply

[42:54]

bright, clear, universal consciousness, and empty of all distinctions. So from that ultimate point of view, each sentient being is illusory. Of course, from another ultimate point of view, each thing in the world is ultimately real, and there's no separation. So sorry to confuse you. It just reminds me of one of my kids when he was, I guess, about nine or 10. And there was that song that came out. It was a commercial. It's the real thing. My boy is now. It was about coal. I was quite wise of him.

[44:01]

Did any of you ever watch the TV show Mad Men in the lat? What's that? The final episode, what's his name, the guy who's the ad man. Yeah, he goes to some BN or something and maybe he takes some substance, I don't know. But he's finally sitting there and he has this realization and he creates that ad about his real thing. Based on some perhaps drug-induced epiphany, yes. And so then the real thing gets reduced to coke. So one thing to say, in some ways, the difference between Rinzai and Soto is not so important. And a lot of what Musa Soseki is teaching is very congruent to our teaching.

[45:07]

And also, part of what it points out is that within the Buddhist teaching, there are a range of ways of approaching the teaching. So comment? Too bad. Well, one full spectrum. Yes.

[46:15]

Yeah, you walk through it, yeah. Right. Yeah, it's fundamental. There's no three-dimensionality to the thing observed in a way. It's flat. Let me qualify that.

[47:15]

I understand what you're saying. I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead. Finish what you were saying. Yes, yes and. So there are a variety of different kinds of Japanese gardens. The tea gardens For example, you walk through, and then you do see it from different positions. So you walk to the tea house. A lot of the aspects of the tea gardens are similar in terms of the elements of the tea garden. So there are shrubs, and there might be raked gravel. So they are miniature landscapes in a way. But even the ones that are that you sit and look at, you can sit and look at from different places on the veranda.

[48:27]

And so the most famous of the abstract rock gardens, Ryoanji in Kyoto, is just 15 stones and raked gravel with circles of raked gravel around the stones and a little bit of moss around some large rocks. But you cannot, no matter where you sit on the veranda, you cannot see all 15 rocks at the same time. So there's a dynamism to it, even though it seems, even for the ones that you don't walk through. But then there are other large gardens. Tenryu-ji, actually, you can walk around behind. There are parts of it you can't walk in, but you can walk up around behind the lake that Muso sculpted, really. They're kind of like sculptures. I mean, these gardens, they are, and yes, you look at them like you would look at a sculpture, but they're nature, they're landscapes, they're miniature landscapes.

[49:32]

Thank you. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I think so. I think there's something similar, however, between the Japanese approach and the English landscape approach in that it's taking man-made vistas and having them stand in for natural vistas, recreating on a small scale what you might find. on a naturally occurring large scale, so it's almost like creating the garden as a representation, like a stand-in, as a metaphor for the larger landscape, in a way that the French obviously don't approach.

[50:50]

You don't go to Versailles and be like, ah, yes, I've seen this landscape painted. But an English estate with the vast fields is imitating larger sweeps of grassland in the way that that the small pruned conifers in the Japanese garden are imitating much larger 500-year-old conifers that you would see from much further away. So they're all like metaphors for the things themselves. So I would say that the English has a hint of that in it. And there's also, so Sansui landscape, mountains and waters, You know, there's also landscape paintings, so the abstract, sometimes abstract landscape paintings. There's an example of that in the Dokusan room of mountains, which you can see. But some of them are long scrolls where you see a whole sesshu of great Japanese landscape painter has a long scroll that you can't see all of it once it unfolds, but it has the seasons.

[52:02]

And so these are all miniature, in a sense, microcosms, maybe is a better word than metaphor, of the world of nature. And there are people in the paintings. There are people, but they're tiny. They're little small figures who are part of the whole landscape of what we would call nature. But they're not, you know, they're not like, you know, in Western nature paintings, you know, the human figures are loom large because we, you know, of course, are controlling nature. I mean, anyway, that's a generalization, but. Sure, please. in a very immaterial way.

[53:08]

Yes. I don't know that one, but yeah, that's the idea in the Japanese gardens. But some of these abstract karasansui dry rock gardens, they're called, are small, like maybe the size of three zabutons, and they're beautiful. They imply a whole large landscape. Oh, yes, Jen. One of the things you said reminded me of the establishment of Yellowstone Park and probably any national park. When Yellowstone Park was built or when it was set aside, human beings were required to leave. And people went to the park to see the, quote-unquote, nature, the animals, but not the— So the South America parks include the indigenous people?

[54:22]

Yeah, it was a mistake, I think. Yeah. It was a big mistake. Yeah. It was an abomination. Yes, thank you, yes. You were talking about the scrolls. Yeah, and occasionally, here and there, there's some pilgrim walking through, or there's a picture of a little hut and a person sitting zazen, or just sitting there. Yeah. So the people are included, but they're a small part of the whole landscape. Anyway, I wanted to just include amongst the other early Japanese figures who I talked about, this Rinzai monk from, it was interesting in a numbers of ways, his teachings too, but just as a figure who had to, in terms of his garden designing, but also as a figure who tried to

[55:30]

tried to stay away from the capital and stay away from all the power intrigues of the day and ended up being in the middle of them and being a mediator, really, but very influential in the middle of them. So that's a different kind of example of engaged Buddhism, I guess. Anyway, any other last comments or questions? Okay, let's close with the four bodhisattva vows.

[56:04]

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