Good morning, so these three days I'm going to be talking about three of the important writings from Dogen's Shobo Genzo about Zazen. And today I'll be talking about the poems and actually a little bit about the essay about Zazen Shin, which means literally the acupuncture needle of Zazen, or it's sometimes translated as the point of Zazen, or I'm using Carl Bielfolk's translation, the lancet of Zazen, or seated meditation. Tomorrow I'm going to be talking about Fukan Zazengi, which is another important writing about Zazen, shorter writing about Zazen, universal recommendations for Zazen, that

[01:04]

we chant sometimes. We'll chant that in our midday service today and tomorrow, and then Sunday I'll be talking about the self-fulfillment samadhi, which we also chant sometimes, we'll chant that Sunday. So, Zazen Shin is actually two poems, verses, one by Hongzhe, important predecessor of Dogen, so maybe most of you know Dogen was the founder of this branch of Buddhism called Soto Zen, 1200 to 1253 he lived, but in the 1100s one of his main predecessors in that lineage in China was named Hongzhe, and he wrote a verse called Zazen Shin, which I translated in my

[02:12]

translation of some of Hongzhe's writings in Cultivating the Empty Field. So Dogen wrote a whole essay, and I'm going to refer to that, there's actually three parts to the essay, this is the third part, so I'm going to talk about that essay, but I want to start just by reading these two poems, and we'll come back to them because it's the third part of this long Shobo Genso essay, and I want to touch on the first two parts briefly then come back to this, these two verses, but I'll start by reading the two verses, and this is from Carl Bielfeldt's translation, although I'm going to refer to some other translations. So Hongzhe wrote, the essential function of every Buddha, the functional essence of every ancestor, it knows without touching things, it illumines without facing objects, knowing without touching things, its knowing is inherently subtle, examining without facing objects,

[03:19]

its illumining is inherently mysterious, its knowing inherently subtle, it is ever without discriminative thought or discriminative thinking, its knowing inherently subtle, it is ever without discriminatory thought, its illumining inherently mysterious or wondrous, it is ever without a hair's breadth of sign, or identification is another translation of that, ever without discriminatory thought, its knowing is rare without peer, ever without a hair's breadth of sign or identification, its illumining comprehends without grasping, the water is clear right through to the bottom, a fish goes lazily along, the sky is vast without horizon, a bird flies far away. So Dogen highly praised this poem, he, when we come back to it, he talks about how very

[04:26]

few, almost nobody in China understands zazen, but Hongzhe does, and then he cites this poem. And you may recognize the fish and the bird from Genjo Koan, another essay by Dogen I talked about last Sunday. So Dogen praises this poem, but then he writes one himself that sort of goes a little further, or expresses something further. So Dogen's poem, essential function of all the Buddhas, functioning essence of all the ancestors, it is present without thinking. It is completed without interacting. It is completed without interacting, present without thinking. Its present is inherently intimate, completed without interacting. Its completion is inherently verified, its presence inherently intimate.

[05:30]

It is ever without stain or defilement, its completion inherently verified. It is ever without upright or inclined, intimacy ever without stain or defilement. Its intimacy sloughs off or drops off without discarding, verification ever without upright or inclined. Its verification makes effort without figuring. The water is clear right through the earth. A fish goes along like a fish. The sky is vast, straight into the heavens. A bird flies just like a bird. So I'm going to come back to those, these two poems, but first I want to talk about the first two parts of the longer, much longer essay of Zazenshin. So, the first two parts each refers to a particular story or saying in the Zen tradition, and

[06:40]

you may have, some of you may have heard of each of them. The first one I know you've heard of, if you've read or recited the Fukanza Zengi, and I'm going to just paraphrase, but this is the story that's mentioned briefly in the Fukanza Zengi, so we'll talk about it also tomorrow. This is the dialogue with Yaoshan, or Yakusan in Japanese, who is the teacher of Yunyan, who is the teacher of Dongshan, who wrote the Jewel Marishimani, we chant. So one time Yaoshan was sitting and a student approached him and said, so maybe this was not like sitting in the Zendo, I don't know that somebody would have come up to him and asked while he was sitting in the Zendo, but anyway, so the monk asked Yaoshan, what

[07:48]

are you thinking about, what are you thinking of, sitting so steadfastly? And Yaoshan replied, I'm thinking of not thinking. The monk asked, how do you think of not thinking? And Yaoshan answered, beyond thinking. So that's the whole story. So this is an important story about what happens, what our Zazen is about, and what happens in Zazen. So I'm talking about three different writings about Zazen from Dogen, and each one of them we could spend, a whole book could be written about it, we could spend a whole year on, but I'm taking a day for each, so this is a quick survey.

[08:49]

But I'll just mention, often the answer from Yaoshan, how do you think of not thinking, is translated, non-thinking. And I prefer the translation, which is in our Fukunza Zenki, translation, beyond thinking. I never liked this translation, non-thinking, because it didn't mean anything to me besides not thinking. But Shohaku Okamura translated it as beyond thinking, and because of that one translation, I went and spent two years living in Kyoto and translating a couple of books with him. Anyway, beyond thinking. How do you think of not thinking, beyond thinking? So Dogen has a bunch of comments on this dialogue, let's see, what do I want to say about Dogen's

[09:51]

comments about this. Well, Dogen says, although it is we who are steadfastly sitting, steadfastly sitting is not merely thinking, it presents steadfast sitting. Although steadfast sitting is steadfast sitting, how could steadfast sitting think of steadfast sitting, Dogen says. This is typical Dogen way of playing with our way of thinking. So there's a long commentary in it, just picking out a couple of things.

[10:52]

Recently, he says, some stupid illiterate Zen people say, once the breast is without concern, the concentrated effort at seated meditation is a state of peace and calm. This view does not reach the students of the small vehicle, it is inferior even to the vehicle of humans and devas. So the point is that just reaching seated meditation with concentrated effort to reach the state of peace and calm is not what Dogen is talking about in terms of Zazen. The goal of Zazen is not to reach some peaceful, calm state. Of course, that can happen while we're sitting, but that's not the point.

[11:58]

He says it very strongly. So, he also says, some people think walking is Zazen, sitting is Zazen, and speech or silence, motion, or rest, the substance is at ease. And Dogen says, do not adhere solely to the present concentrated effort. This view is common among those calling themselves a branch of—he refers to the Rinzai branch, the Nge branch—it is because of a deficiency in the transmission of the right life of the Buddha Dharma, they say this. So he says, what is beginner's mind? Where is there no beginner's mind? Where do we leave the beginner's mind? So, the point is that this is, this beyond thinking is a kind of awareness.

[13:03]

In Fukan Zazengi, that we'll look at tomorrow, he says this beyond thinking is the essential art of Zazen. He's talking about what is awareness in Zazen. So of course, thoughts arise in Zazen. As we're sitting here, thoughts arise, of course. And then sometimes there's no thinking. So in a period of Zazen or in a day of sitting like this, there are some times when there's no thoughts arising. But Yaoshan, as he's sitting steadfastly, sitting upright, sitting with determination, he says he's thinking of not thinking. What does that mean? He says it's beyond thinking. No, he doesn't, that's not not thinking, and it's not thinking.

[14:10]

It's beyond thinking. So I would suggest that this is a form of awareness. It is a kind of physical awareness. We sense the sound of the air conditioning or heating, whichever. We sense the color of the wall in front of us. We sense the sensation of our shoulders or our knees or our mudra. It's not the absence of awareness. It's not discriminative thinking. It may include those.

[15:12]

Beyond thinking may include thinking and not thinking, but it's beyond thinking. So I'm not suggesting that you think about this the rest of the day or that you don't think about this the rest of the day. But what is thinking of not thinking? And how can you enjoy beyond thinking? Okay, that's the first story in this longer Zazen Chin essay. The second one is a little more complicated, and it's also a very famous story. It involves two characters, two famous Zen people, and their names are Nanyue and Mazu. And in the text, he uses other names, which are their former names, because those are

[16:19]

the names they're, as teachers, that they're remembered by. But Nanyue was the teacher of Mazu, and so I'm just using their, I'll just mention them by their names they're remembered by. Mazu means horse ancestor, and he had 139 enlightened disciples, they say. But this is a story about when he was a student, and Nanyue saw him sitting in meditation. So it's a sort of similar situation. The first story, it's Yaoshan, Yaoshan, Mazu is sitting in meditation, and his teacher Nanyue says, comes by and says, oh, great virtuous one, what are you aiming to do sitting there in meditation? What are you intending? What are you aiming at sitting there in meditation? And Dogen has long commentaries on these, but I'm not going to go into all the commentaries,

[17:26]

so it's a long essay, but Mazu said, I'm aiming to make a Buddha. And Dogen has a long comment on this, this initial response, where he says, it should be recognized that these words mean that zazen, or seated meditation, is always aiming to make a Buddha. And this aiming must be prior to making a Buddha, it must be after making a Buddha, it must be at the very moment of making a Buddha, and he goes on like that. These entanglements further intertwine with these entanglements. We should seek to avoid this one aiming when we avoid the one aiming we forfeit our body

[18:30]

and lose our life. Anyway, in the story, Nanyue sat down nearby and he picked up a tile, like a roof tile, which, you know, there are many in the temple, and he began to rub it with a stone, and Mazu noted and said, Master, what are you making? And Nanyue said, I'm polishing a tile to make a mirror. And Mazu said, how can you make a mirror by polishing a tile? And anyway, Dogen has various comments about each of these lines. Which I'm not going to go into the details of.

[19:40]

But Mazu said, how can you polish a tile and make a mirror from it? And Nanyue replied, how can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation? So Dogen says, this is clearly understood, there is a principle that zazen, seated meditation, does not await making a Buddha. There is nothing obscure about the essential message that making a Buddha is not connected to seated meditation. Now usually this story is understood as meaning that, sometimes it's been understood that you don't need to do zazen to make a Buddha, and zazen is not important. It has been interpreted in that way. That's the kind of usual interpretation, like there's no need for zazen, zazen is not important.

[20:44]

Dogen interprets it quite differently. So I'm going to skip ahead, because there's lots of commentary. There's a, they have a further dialogue where Nanyue says, are you practicing seated meditation or are you practicing seated Buddha? Good question. And Dogen in his commentary says, the actual meaning of practicing seated meditation, we

[21:49]

do know that here that it is practicing seated Buddha. Who but a direct descendant could say that practicing seated meditation is practicing seated Buddha? We should know indeed that the beginner's seated meditation is the beginning seated meditation, and the beginning seated meditation is the beginning seated Buddha. So what Dogen, how Dogen interprets this is, and he goes on to, well let's see, basically just cutting to the chase, Dogen says, yes, we should use a stone to polish a tile into a mirror. Dennis is shocked. Yes, we should practice seated meditation to make a Buddha.

[22:57]

But actually, Buddha is already making a Buddha. Buddha is there at the beginning. Who would grasp or reject it as the Buddha? It is because long ago, Dogen says, it dropped off grasping and rejecting that it is a seated Buddha. So, anyway, Dogen plays with these stories in a unique way. Just a little bit of his further commentary, because I want to get back to these poems, but, so basically, yes, what Dogen ends up saying, really, is that making a Buddha is enacting Buddha, that seated meditation is expressing Buddha, so, and he talks about

[24:00]

this concentrated effort of seated meditation is called dropping off body and mind, a famous phrase for Dogen. There may be humans who make Buddhas, but not all humans make Buddhas, and Buddhas are not all humans, so there are Buddhas who are not humans. Since all Buddhas are not simply all humans, a human is by no means a Buddha, and a Buddha is by no means a human. The seated Buddha is also like this, and, a little bit more, where the teaching of the Buddha is not transmitted, neither is seated meditation, so Dogen ends his commentary about this emphasizing seated meditation, zazen. What has been inherited by successor after successor is just this message of zazen, of seated meditation.

[25:00]

Zazen means seated meditation. Those who do not participate in the single transmission of this message are not Buddhas or ancestors. When they are not clear about this one teaching, they are not clear about 10,000 teachings, or they are not clear about the 10,000 practices. So Dogen emphasizes zazen, and all of the teachings we're going to look at this weekend are about that. So Dogen understands this story of Nanyue and Mazu as a way of talking about this function of zazen and this function of Buddhas, and the question of aiming to become a Buddha or to make a Buddha, and there's a little bit of a problem with that because, yes, we

[26:05]

should aim to become or to make a Buddha, but it's Buddha aiming to make a Buddha. It's a human being aiming to make a human being. So we sit like Buddha to become fully human. So these other background stories are the background for these two verses that I want to talk about next, that I started with. And Dogen introduces them by talking about how true zazen and true Buddha, he says, has not been understood by many of the people, the teachers in China. So he says, what these teachers have collected is nothing but models for reverting to the

[27:17]

source and returning to the origin, vain programs for suspending consideration and congealing in tranquility. They do not approach the stages of observation, exercise, infusion and cultivation, aspects of meditation practice. How could they represent the single transmission of seated meditation of the Buddhas and ancestors? So he criticizes this suspending considerations and congealing in tranquility. So suspending considerations, getting rid of thought and congealing in tranquility. The point of this zazen is not to find a space of peace and calm again. Sometimes we do find some tranquility, but not to settle into it, not to escape into,

[28:25]

not to congeal into tranquility. That's not the point. So then Dogen goes on to say that among all the instructions about zazen or seated meditation in China, only Chan Master Hongzhe from Tiantong Monastery really gets it. Only he has said it right. It alone is a light throughout the surface and interior of the Dharma realm. It is by a Buddha and ancestor, among the Buddhas and ancestors of past and present. Okay, so that brings us back to these two verses. So, somewhere here I have too many pieces of paper.

[29:27]

Okay. Okay. Oh shoot, I don't have the one with my notes. Okay, well.

[31:04]

Okay. Okay, so going back, the eternal function of every Buddha, the functioning essence of every ancestor is to know without touching things. Oh wait, I had that at the beginning. Excuse me. I had a copy of that with particular notes. So this is Carl Bildfeld's translation, but I also consulted a few other translations, including the one that I did for Cultivating the Empty Field. Okay, well, I'll just remember it.

[32:52]

Essential function of every Buddha, functioning essence of every ancestor, this is Hongzhe, it knows without touching things. It illumines without facing objects or without encountering objects. Knowing without touching or encountering things, it's knowing is inherently subtle. So this is about how we know things. One of the translations says, for knowing it says sensing. So how do we, how are we aware? This goes back to awareness. What is our, you know, what is this awareness that we can call beyond thinking? How do we know things? So Hongzhe is talking about the quality of this awareness in Zazen. And he calls it an acupuncture needle. So it's pointing at the acupuncturist and points at the physical places in our body

[34:13]

that are activated, that have the energy points in, so this is talking about the energy points in our Zazen body. How do we, how do we sense or know or be aware without encountering objects, without meeting the world as objects? So this gets back to our usual subject-object awareness and goes beyond that. So illumining, without encountering objects or facing objects, it's illumining is inherently mysterious. That word mysterious could also be miraculous or wondrous, could be translated that way. It's knowing inherently subtle. It is ever without discriminative thought, discriminative thinking.

[35:15]

So this illumining is not about discriminating between objects or dividing up thoughts. Of course we have that kind of thinking, but this illumining is not about that. It's illumining inherently mysterious. It is ever without a hair's breadth of sign or identification. So this goes beyond identifying objects or seeing signs of things. Ever without discriminative thought or thinking, it's knowing is rare without match, without peer. Ever without a hair's breadth of identification or sign, it's illumining comprehends or is complete, is another translation, without grasping. Illumining completely without grasping after things.

[36:17]

So this is a description of a kind of awareness that is the heart of Zazen awareness. So you might consider this in terms of how, what is the heart, what is the Zazen body as we sit through the day? The water is clear right through to the bottom. A fish goes lazily along or swims along at ease, another translation. The sky is vast without horizon or vast without end. A bird flies far, far away or far into the distance. So this is Hongsha's presentation of the essential body of Zazen, the beyond thinking

[37:20]

of Zazen. And Dogen praises this as truly, oh, I just found my notes, maybe, okay, well, anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So the fish lazily swims on, birds fly far into the distance. So he uses, so Hongsha uses this image of, this natural image of how fish swim along, how birds fly far away. So Dogen praises this, but then he writes another verse. And some scholars say, well, he writes another verse because he's really, you know, criticizing Hongsha. I don't think so. I think he specifically, explicitly praises Hongsha, but then he writes his own expression

[38:23]

of it. And in some ways, he's doing something maybe beyond Hongsha or saying something a little more. So I'm interested in your responses to these two verses and your questions and comments on these. Dogen says, the essential function of all the Buddhas, the functioning essence of all the ancestors, it is present without thinking, it is completed without interacting. So here I'll say, this present and complete, the characters for present and for complete are genjo of genjo koan. So genjo means to manifest fully. It is present without thinking. It is complete without interacting. So this essential function, this functioning essence, it's, and he takes that from Hongsha,

[39:32]

but it's something that's functioning. It's not static, right? It's the essential function. It's complete and present. It's genjo. It's manifesting, beyond thinking, without interacting. Present without thinking, its presence is inherently intimate. So for those of you who were here Monday night when Ben Connolly was talking, he was talking about intimacy and mindfulness, and intimacy was the way he was talking about total interconnectedness . Its presence is inherently intimate. Completed without interacting, its completion is inherently verified. This word verified, sho, is a word for realization or enlightenment. It means the verification of full awakening and realization. Completed without interacting, its completion is inherently verified.

[40:39]

It's intimate, but not interacting. It's fully connected with everything, without one thing interacting with another. It's already totally intimate. It's presence inherently intimate. It is ever without stain or defilement. This stain or defilement goes back to a story about Nanyue. Nanyue was the one who started to polish the tile to make a mirror in the other story. He was Mazu's teacher. When he was a student, so this is maybe a side story. Well, I'll come back to that. No, I won't. I'll say it right now. So there's a story about Nanyue that's an important story that Dogen mentions a lot. So when Nanyue was a student, he was a student of Huining, of the famous sixth ancestor. And when Nanyue, as a student, he wasn't called Nanyue then.

[41:46]

Some of you have heard me tell this story. He showed up and the sixth ancestor Huining said, what is this that thus comes? A kind of funny way of saying, who are you? What is this that thus comes? And Nanyue was kind of perplexed and didn't know what to say. And so the story goes that he went and sat like a steel rod upright in the zendo for eight years. So these stories, sometimes you think that they are speaking back and forth. But in this case, they tell you that actually it took him eight years before he came back. So sometimes there's some space between the question and the response in these stories. Anyway, Nanyue came back to Huining eight years later and says, now I can respond to what you asked me a long time ago.

[42:50]

You said, what is this that thus comes? And he said, now I can say that anything I say would miss the mark. It took him eight years to come up with that. And the sixth ancestor Huining said, well, so is there practice realization or not? And Nanyue said, it's not that there is no practice realization, it's just that it cannot be defiled. And Dougen praises this response and so did Huining. This character for stain or defilement is what Nanyue said when he said it can't be defiled. So that's just a footnote to this verse. It's completion inherently verified. It is ever without upright or inclined.

[43:53]

So another footnote. Upright or inclined is the literal way of saying what is often translated as the dialectic of universal and phenomenal or ultimate and particular, universal and particular. It's the basis of the, well, the two truths or the five degrees. It's the dialectic in the harmony of difference and sameness and in the dual merit samadhi. This upright and inclined are the two sides, Dongshan says in the dual merit samadhi, I am not it, it actually is, you are not it, it actually is you. This upright and inclined are these two sides of the ultimate or universal and the particular

[44:57]

or phenomenal. And here Dogen is saying intimacy, it is ever without stain or defilement. It's completion inherently verified, inherently awakened, realized. It is ever without upright or inclined. It's beyond these two of ultimate and particular. Intimacy ever without stain or defilement. It's intimacy drops away without discarding. Verification ever without upright or inclined. It's verification makes effort without figuring, without aiming, without trying to make something, without deliberating. Then he goes, the water is clear right through the earth, right down to the bottom, right down to the earth. A fish goes along like a fish.

[45:59]

The sky is vast straight into the heavens, straight to the end of the sky. A bird flies just like a bird. So he changes, so he goes with a fish and a bird like Hongzhe, but instead of saying a fish swims along lazily or a bird flies far into the distance, he just says a fish swims like a fish, a bird flies like a bird. So, these are poetic expressions of something and in some ways they're not different. In some ways Dogen is saying something a little bit more than Hongzhe and as poetry, you know, it's hard to pin down what they're saying and it's not that we should try to explain them, but I'm interested in your responses or comments to anything I've said or to these

[47:01]

two verses. Yes, Chris first. I was going to mention this. Just as an observation, something that I really love about these books, something that I really love, perhaps it's something that can be done in Japanese, something that I really

[48:03]

love here is when he describes the water sphere right through to the bottom and the sky is a vast black horizon. Well, that one's Hongzhe, but yeah. I'm commenting on it. Yeah. Something that I see him doing a lot that I necessarily appreciate is, he does a lot that I remember very clearly in the show, he does a lot, he just takes these words that are there and twists them and makes them whole statements into remembering the right things like fire, rain, and things like that and I think he does that here as well where he says the water sphere right through the earth, something that on its face, a superficial reading doesn't make any sense. It's not that it makes sense because water and earth are separate things, but I love that he does that because it just cuts, I love the lens that he cuts straight through this

[49:06]

assumed duality between water and earth. Right. The water sphere right through to the bottom and the sky is a vast black horizon, which is beautiful, but maintains this, it's still within this idea of water. Uh-huh. It doesn't bring in earth, it doesn't bring in heavens. So I love that he does this where he just gets rid of that because the water is clear right through the earth. Why should they be separate? You invoke water, but it's everything. It can't be God or earth. You invoke water, so the water is clear right through the earth. It's all inclusive. You invoke it. The sky is vast straight into the heavens. There's no bottom. It just opens out. There's a vast sea. And then it just includes everything. So that's something I really appreciated in his interpretation. Just a very subtle shift of wording. I think he does such an excellent job at that. Very subtle, but assumed.

[50:10]

Yeah. No separation. Right. Yeah. Dennis. Well, I was shocked. I was shocked by that passage about the tile, washing the tile. I've always thought that was an expression of the futility of trying to pre-enforce the small self into a Buddha through meditation or, in fact, any other means. Perhaps you could enlighten me on why he said, go ahead and polish the tile. Yeah. So. The fan. Uh-huh. It's like that. Yeah, there's another saying in a different context about I forget exactly how the story goes, but you don't need to polish a jewel. There's a story. One story says, but Dogen says instead, yes, you should polish a jewel.

[51:21]

And it just enhances the glow. So it's not that the jewel doesn't glow in the first place. So this is like him saying Buddha going beyond Buddha. Buddha's already there. And yet Buddha can develop and further spread Buddha throughout Buddha. So I think that's my expression of it. Thanks for the talk. Thanks for listening. Douglas. Well, it seems to me that Hongzhi uses a lot of the language about illumination. There's illumination without touching things, without facing objects. Right. Illumination is almost a kind of seeing in which the particular is dissolved.

[52:28]

And he even does that in the imagery at the end of the poem where he talks about the sky is vast without horizon. A bird flies far, far away. So it certainly emphasizes this universal or large thing. And the bird is part of it. But almost at the point of disappearing. And Dogen doesn't use seeing in the illumination language at all in this poem. He talks about presence, intimacy, which intimacy in a way doesn't dissolve objects. Forms can be intimate. They're just not separate things. And, yeah, the verification is that upright or identified. He doesn't die. It's not. I mean, the ultimate is that upright and identified are all part of this world

[53:32]

which we find ourselves. So he doesn't say that upright and identified are all part of this world. He says that a bird flies far, far away in this sky that's vast without horizon. He says that a bird flies just like a bird. Yes, each thing is self. Each thing is part of the big self, the big thing. Yeah. Which is not so that we can still speak of things. We can still speak of the absolute. But those are just aspects of what is really real. And that's not something we see. Yeah. So, yes, good point. Hongzhe talks about serene illumination and he talks about the illumination that underlies all things. But Dogen is more talking about the expression of each thing which is already inherently intimate. So, yeah. I mean, Dogen does in some places talk about illumination but not as much as Hongzhe. And not in this poem.

[54:32]

It's a different test altogether. It's not saying I'm trying to see something. It's anything I can see would be, I mean, the next step would be anything I can see. If I call it upright or I call it inclined, that's okay but that's not definitive. That's just an aspect of what's real. You can talk about it as inclined or upright. Right. Its presence is inherently intimate. Completed without interacting. Yeah, and Hongzhe seems to be talking about the upright. Seeing into the upright. Yeah, maybe so. Yeah. Or at least it can be seen that way. Well, I've gone beyond time. This is a very long essay. It's a lot. But any last questions or comments? I have a quick one.

[55:34]

Yes, Michael. The other day, maybe a couple weeks ago, you mentioned in a talk that there was kind of a schism between poetry and, or like the practice of just sitting and some of the literature or poetry of the time. Yeah. So whether or not it was valuable or worth your effort. And I was wondering if something like this was considered that was as part of that poetry that was sort of, you know, people weren't accepting as much or is it different? You know, are they talking about, I don't know, a different kind of, is this considered poetry? Sure, this is poetry. Yeah, no, that was part of the culture then that I was talking about. And I will be talking about more in a week or two after this. That is part of, it was a question for Dogen and it was a question in medieval Japanese

[56:39]

Buddhism is, so both Hongzhe and Dogen are very literary and poetic in their expression. And some people thought that that was kind of too much and that you should just focus on intense meditation and that that was more important. And it was a question for Dogen himself, even though he was very literary and poetic. I think it was more a question then than it is now. We recognize, you know, spiritual poetry and that that can be a valuable way of conveying something. But yeah, there was a tension about that through medieval Japanese Buddhism. But they went ahead and wrote this and we have it now and we can appreciate it. And I'm talking about all of this as an encouragement to consider as part of what is beyond thinking

[57:55]

in your zazen. How do you bring this into your zazen? Not to think about that, or not to not think about that, but what is your awareness in zazen? Yes, Chris. Very, very quickly, and this is perhaps a little bit esoteric, and maybe self-serving, but this mysterious shows up often. Is this you? Is it the same you? Yes. Yeah, so it means wondrous, miraculous, mysterious, subtle. Yeah, it's a mysterious character, yeah. So, well thank you all very much for being here and we'll continue the next two days. You're all welcome to be here, whether you're sitting that day or not. So we'll close with the, whoops, with the Bodhisattva Vows.

[58:56]

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