Good evening. So this evening I'm continuing with the series of talks I've been doing on the Book of Serenity. We're up to case 10. Oh, it's an interesting talk, interesting case. I don't know about the talk. I don't know that I have much to say about it. But this is about Zhaozhou, who we saw in the last case when he would have saved the cat that Nanshuan, his teacher, had killed after the monks were squabbling over it, and Zhaozhou walked out with his sandals on his head, and Nanchuan said he would have saved the cat. Zhaozhou was a great teacher. Many, many, many of these old teaching stories are about him or feature him. But this story is, in some ways, he's in the story, but in some ways, this story is about an old woman.

[01:08]

Not just any old woman, but this was the woman of Taishan. It's actually the first story in the Hidden Lamp anthology of stories of women teachers from India, China, and Japan edited by Florence Kaplow, who was here last month speaking and will be here again in January together with Sue Moon. So this is the first story in their collection. And well, I'll just read the case. So I've talked about how we work with these teaching stories before it's not about, well this one is sort of enigmatic, but these are not riddles to solve, but stories about some aspect of our practice and they've been studied for a thousand years because they keep being alive. So, in our tradition, we just settle into a play with a story and when I work individually with people on it, it's work with stories until it becomes part of your practice body.

[02:23]

So, this is a story to take in and consider and not to find answers about, and this one particularly. So the story goes, on the road to Taishan, there lived a certain woman. Whenever a monk asked her, which way does the road to Taishan go? The woman would say, right straight on, or right straight ahead. As soon as the monk would go, the woman would say, a fine monk. He goes that way, too. The monk told Zhaozhou about this. Zhaozhou said, wait till I check out that woman for you. Giorgio also asked the woman the same question. The next day he went up in the hall and said, I've checked throughout the woman for you. OK, first of all, Taishan is Wu Taishan, the sacred mountain in North China that's said to be home to Manjushri, the bodhisattva of insider wisdom who's in front of the Buddha on our altar, who I've talked about, the Buddha who represents the bodhisattva, the great enlightening being, awakening being, who

[03:34]

It expresses insight and wisdom, and there are many stories of visitors, pilgrims to Utaishan finding sometimes tramps or strange figures who turned out to be Manjushri. But there's a number of ways to interpret this story. In the Book of Serenity text, as Cleary translates it, the woman says, after the monk says, which way does the road to Taishan go? The woman would just say, right straight ahead. As soon as the monk would go, the woman would say, a fine monk, he goes that way too. Now, this is kind of an interpretation. But the way it's written in the, I don't think, this is the flexibility of Chinese.

[04:39]

But one way to interpret this is that the woman says, a fine monk, but he goes that way too. So there's a lot of these stories, and this one Particularly, there's this discussion of winners and losers. A lot of times, these are seen as stories where somebody got it and somebody didn't, somebody missed the chance or not. So in a lot of the commentary, there's this kind of, in the Book of Serenity and other versions of the story, there's this kind of question. Because Zhao Zhou goes and says, wait till I check out that woman for you. And Zhao Zhou asked the woman the same question. And in this version, it doesn't say so. But she also said, write straight ahead. And Zhao Zhou, as soon as he continued, she said, there goes another one, another one bites the dust, you know?

[05:40]

And so, you know, there's this tradition in China and Japan, too, of... women practitioners, women adepts, hanging out near the monasteries, near the temples, and kind of testing the monks, and women selling tea by the side of the road, who look like they're just innocuous old peasants, but are actually deeply wise. And so in this story, there's some of the commentary. Well, I'll read. I'll read the introduction to the case by Wansong, who comments on the cases as Hongzhe picked them and wrote verses. Wansong says, with gathering and with release, the pull is by his side. Able to kill, able to give life, the balance is in his hands. Seeming to talk about Zhaozhou. Passions, demons, outsiders.

[06:41]

All rely on his direction. The earth, mountains, and rivers all become playthings. But tell me, what sphere is this? What realm is this? So that's the whole story. And it's very simple and straightforward. And yet there are questions about it. There are questions to consider about this. One point is that the monks are all going to Mount Wutai. They're all going as pilgrims to Wutai Shan. What are they seeking? What are they looking for? Is there something they don't already have? Are they going to try and find wisdom from Manjushri? What is the point of their going, what is the point of their asking? Which way is the road to Taishang?

[07:47]

Which way does it go? And this old woman just says, straight ahead. And then there he goes, another one. And Zhaozhou does the exact same thing as all the other monks. Same story. And then he goes back to his assembly and said, oh, I've checked out the woman for you. And he did. I'll read Hongsha's verse, and I'm not sure that it helps so much. It says, olden years attaining the essence, no mistake in transmission. So olden years, is that the old woman or is that Zhaozhou? He lived to be 120, historically. Olden years attaining the essence, no mistake in transmission. The ancient Buddha Zhaozhou succeeded to Nanchuan. So though maybe it refers to the old woman, it also certainly refers to Zhaozhou.

[08:49]

The dead tortoise loses its life due to designs drawn on it. Even the steed's chariot and wind chaser are encumbered by halter and bridle. Having checked out the woman's chan, told two people it's not worth a cent. So Hongzhou, who wrote that first, seems to be putting down the old woman a little bit. And there's this flavor of these things. But more deeply, You know, this is about going beyond winners and losers, this story, I feel like. The commentator in the Hidden Lamp Anthology is a woman named Nancy Brown Hedgepath. I don't know her, but she's a senior teacher in the Quantum School in Rhode Island. And she pointed out her teacher Sung San Sunim's main teaching, just don't know. So this don't know mind.

[09:51]

Is there some wisdom to get from Manjushri? Well, there goes another one. So the old woman was just sort of, you know, sending them on their way, all these seekers. But somehow there's an edge to what she says. But also there's this just don't know mind. I came across, a phrase on a television show I was watching called comprehension deficiency. Not understanding, but I like that phrase. There's a comprehension deficiency, Dr. Hu said. Anyway, what is our comprehension deficiency? what can we get from going to Mount Mutai and facing the home of the great Bodhisattva of Insight, Manjushri.

[11:01]

So there's some of Wansong's commentary, I won't go through all of Hongshu's verse, but there's some parts of this that are worth considering. First, he tells a story about, not about Zhaozhou, but about Zhaozhou's teacher, Nanchuan, the one who had the interaction with the cat that we talked about. So it says, Wan Song says, the enlightened master Jiaozhuo succeeded to Nanshuang. And then he tells us, he refers to a story about Nanshuang's teacher, Mazu, the great horse's ancestor. So all these stories have, you know, these Zen characters. You hear about them and you start hearing what they represent. But Wan Song says, Mazu said, Nanshuang is alone transcendent beyond things. So this refers to a story where, well, Zhaozhou was a companion of Changsha.

[12:06]

Nanshuan was their teacher. Therefore, his discerning examinations are not to be classified or characterized in terms of gain or loss, victory or defeat. So Wansang says this very clearly. This is not about gain or loss, victory or defeat. And yet, we, our usual way of thinking is in terms of that. There's a story about Mazu and Nanshuang where he and his wife, Nanshuang, talked to three of his main disciples and asked them what, they said, this is the, I don't remember the story exactly, but something like, he says, the full moon is, they're watching the full moon, and he says, what do you think about this time? And one of them, Zhizhong, whose name means sutra treasury, He said, oh, great time to read the scriptures, to read the sutras.

[13:09]

Well, it says it right here. The scriptures are Xizang. Meditation rests with Huaihai. So that's Baizhang, Yakuza, who had a story with a fox. He said, oh, the full moon, yeah, it's a good time to meditate. Only Nanchuan is alone transcendent. Nanchuan just got up and bowed and left. So that was his response to the moon. And his teacher said that was transcendent, as if there was a winner. So, you know, this checking out this woman, these monks had encountered this woman who sent them on their way and then, you know, made this comment about them and they weren't sure what was going on and so Zhao Zhou went and did the same thing. So, what does it mean to know?

[14:13]

The story from the verse, he refers to the dead tortoise loses its life due to his designs drawn on it. That's actually a story that is about divination and knowing. So he talks about Confucius. Confucius had a saying, a spirit turtle can manifest a dream in an accomplished sorceress, but can't avoid the entrapment of the rapacious net. Its knowledge is capable of 72 auguries without making any wrong divinations, yet it cannot escape the calamity of having its guts rent. So this is referring, it goes on to talk about this, that actually this is an antecedent of the I Ching, which is a wonderful, a book of knowledge, really, and wisdom. It's also used for divination.

[15:20]

But originally, in, I don't know, 2000 or 3000 BC, they used to use tortoise shells. And they would see the shapes of the tortoise shells. And it talks about that one of the ways they did this was drilling holes in the tortoise shell. But of course, Well, it goes on. The sorceress song dreamed of a man covered with hair and who said, I am from the depths of the sovereign road. I was the officer in charge of clearing the rivers for the lord of rivers. A fisherman got me along with his catch. Later, she awoke and figured it out that it was a spirit turtle. And it turned out that the fisherman actually had netted a white turtle five feet around along with his catch. So she divined on it and realized that killing the turtle brought good fortune because they were able to tell fortunes from the tortoise shell.

[16:30]

But it wasn't so fortunate for the turtle. So, yeah, so what is knowledge and what does it mean to actually get knowledge? What are the limits of knowledge? This is actually a common theme in Zen stories, the limitations of our human abilities to know. But here it's also pointing to this seeking to know, wanting to know as a deficiency. There's one more reference that's interesting. In intensive meditation, this seeking to know is called the law of gold and manure. If you don't understand, it's like gold. When you see through it, it's like manure. That is why it says, told to people, it is not worth a cent, referring to Hong Xiu's first comment.

[17:34]

So the issue here is, you know. As Dogen says, why leave behind your seat at home and go off and wander through dusty lands? What is it we're seeking? So when we're sitting here, expressing Buddha with the body on our seat, sitting upright, calm, settling, and doing this regularly so that it becomes part of us, What does this have to do with knowledge? What does this have to do with gaining something? What does this have to do with getting Manjushri's wisdom? Well, maybe the monks were right going off on pilgrimage. And there goes another one. Another one bites the dust. And Jaojo went and he went right along with it. And he said, oh yeah, I checked out that woman. So she's one of these kind of old woman heroes in Chan or Zen.

[18:42]

And Zhaozhou, who was the great Zhaozhou, the great teacher, fell for it too. And so the question has to do with what is our wishing to know, what is real knowing, what is winning or losing, and all of that. And we do. We go off seeking things. We all have aspirations. Our practice is in some ways about it. an aspiration, maybe a very deep aspiration. When do we realize something? What is it we know? What is it like when we come across Manjushri on Mount Mutai? So I like this law of gold and manure. So I don't know that I have much more to say about this.

[19:46]

Does anybody want to confront the old woman of Taisha? Comments, questions, responses, reflections. Yes, Douglas. I think one of the important things, or a side effect of this sort, is that a magistrate can give you new forms. It always does, I think, actually. Yeah. Mhm. So in the back of our zendo, there's a scroll, calligraphy by Shoto Sato sensei, who did a calligraphy demonstration here in this room and calligraphed that.

[20:51]

And he's a living national treasure in Japan. Anyway, and he lives in Champaign now. But it says, straightforward mind, this is the place of awakening, the dojo. So this straightforward mind, just this. Or Sung Sonsonim says, only just don't know, just don't know. Yeah. She's pointing them towards mountain roads, which are certainly winding. But she says, just go straight on. Other thoughts, reflections, comments on this issue

[21:59]

How do we find our way? What is it we can see or gain insight into? Or is there gain or loss? Yes, Jen. Oh, please. That's part of the point of these stories is to let whatever come up. Oh, it's just a phrase that I just came across the last couple of days. Comprehension deficiency. of them had a direction in this conversation, but neither one of them had any idea what the other two were talking about.

[23:38]

And the conversation would always come off just fine. Because they were both so absent. The person I was talking to and I were just totally, our conversation went on and on, but it actually had to do with the pot. That figures. I was thinking of a pot. Sorry, I missed it. Well, it is very funny and it's also a source of tragedy when people are talking past each other.

[24:56]

So part of the story, good, is how is it that all of these monks met this woman of Taishan? How did she meet them? How did Zhaozhou, Zhaozhou did the same thing, same dialogue, but how did he actually see her? So how do we see each other? How do we receive guidance? These monks all wanted guidance. And they just saw this old woman by the road. But they asked, well, which way to go? And we're directed. You're entitled, yes. Thank you.

[26:11]

Yes, Jamie. And at the end of the summer, I was having this conversation with a friend of mine, Good.

[27:50]

Yeah, looking for the woman to point the way. Not to get there, just, you know, okay, what's next? And just go straight ahead. Yeah, good. Not knowing. So Suki Roshi talked a lot about non-gaining attitude. Not sitting with something, not practicing for some particular goal. But that doesn't mean there's not a compass, not a point, not a purpose to it. Just straight ahead. How do we meet the next thing? How do we find our way to be in the way without needing to get to some different place? It's right here. It's not somewhere else that we're going to get to. So it was in the exchange between them. Other questions or comments? Ed.

[28:56]

Sorry about my back here. this distinction between knowledge that we feel we have and knowledge we feel we don't have? Yeah. There are things we know, of course. Each one of us has a body of knowledge, a spirit of knowledge. And yet, is there some knowledge we don't know? So Sung San Sunim said, only don't know. Shukri Roshi talked about beginner's mind. How are we open to moving straight ahead and not knowing where we'll get to? So there's lots of ways to play with this story and the questions about it. Other thoughts? Sarah, you're shaking. Yeah.

[29:59]

Right, without grabbing at some simple answer. We see this so much now where people want some simple answer, some scapegoat, somebody to blame for their problems, and it's easy. Politicians can use that to manipulate people very easily. Any other last comments, thoughts, reflections, questions? There's questions about everything. Oh, sure. Very good, yes.

[31:25]

Yeah, we all do. There's some wanting to have the answer that is, I think, a strong human impulse. And as soon as we get some answer to one of these stories, it's dead. So these stories are living stories, living teachings, because There's more to question and to not know and to wonder about. So Manjushri isn't about giving answers either, but he sees clearly the next step, what's in front of him. So just go on. But yeah, I think what you said is important. There's more than one way. This hasn't happened so much lately but some people used to come to me all the time and they'd have a, sometimes it still does, and they'd have a question.

[32:31]

They'd have to make a decision in their life, sometimes a big decision. Should I do A or B? Yogi Berra said, when you come into a fork in the road, take it. But it's not like there's just one right answer. That both might be right answers, or there might be options C, D, and E that we haven't thought of. So not knowing allows us the flexibility to see other options, to learn. to try on new things. And so Zen is about lifelong learning, and then letting go of whatever we think we've learned, and the question, the inquiry. So thank you. So on that note, let's close with our four bodhisattva vows. We chant three times.

[33:27]

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