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Interdependence Day and Injustice

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ADZG Sunday Morning,
Dharma Talk

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The talk discusses the concept of "Interdependence Day" in relation to the American Independence Day, drawing parallels between the ideals of freedom and interconnectedness within Buddhist practice and American principles. The examination extends to historical injustices related to Native Americans and African Americans during the American Revolution, concludes with references to contemporary social issues like judicial bias and economic inequality, and advocates for vigilance and active engagement based on Bodhisattva ideals.

Referenced Works & Discussions:

  • Declaration of Independence (1776): Cited as an inspirational text for equality and freedom, yet critiqued for its historical exclusion of women and minorities.

  • Benjamin Franklin & Thomas Jefferson: Discuss their contributions to the American founding principles and their implications on liberty and social justice.

  • Frederick Douglass (1852 Speech): His speech critiques the disparities and injustices African Americans faced during his time, highlighting the hypocrisy in the ideals celebrated on July 4th.

  • Gerald Horne's "The Counterrevolution of 1776": Proposes that the American Revolution was motivated by the desire to maintain slavery against encroaching abolitionist sentiment from Britain.

  • Lotus Sutra: Referenced as a source of the Bodhisattva ideal, emphasizing interconnectedness and the aim of alleviating suffering through communal and societal engagement.

  • Somerset’s Case (1772): An English legal case perceived as a threat to North American pro-slavery interests, preceding the American Revolution.

  • Ruth Bader Ginsburg & Recent Supreme Court Rulings: Mentioned in relation to discussions on gender injustice and corporate influence over individual rights in the context of healthcare.

  • Shakyamuni Buddha & Dogen: Cited to contrast traditional Buddhist pursuits of personal nirvana with contemporary interpretations that incorporate active participation in societal issues.

  • Gary Snyder's Perspective on Zen Practice: Emphasizes the application of Zen to practical social issues as an extension of personal practice.

  • Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.: Quoted regarding the long-term movement of freedom towards justice, tying into the speaker's reflections on gradual societal change.

The talk concludes with a call for awareness and action, encouraging individuals to engage with societal issues collaboratively within the framework of Zen Buddhist teachings.

AI Suggested Title: Interdependence: Freedom Through Connection

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Transcript: 

Good morning, everyone. Good morning. This is 4th of July weekend, so I'm going to speak today about one of my favorite American Buddhist holidays, Interdependence Day, or we could say Independence Day. And it has both sides, so... in our practice we realize interdependence or interconnectedness that actually each of us is here because of the interconnectedness and interdependence of all things. And we realize in our practice as we settle deeply into just being present as we are, more and more we realize this deep interconnectedness.

[01:03]

This is, in some ways, the blessing of this practice, this communion with interconnectedness, with the universal, with the ultimate reality. and that we exist in this world thanks to interconnectedness. And yet, the other side of that is our independence, that we realize and express our particular expression of wholeness and of interdependence thanks to this interdependence. So, our true independence comes together with our interdependence. And in our American mythos, this was expressed by Benjamin Franklin, I believe it was, who said, as they were drafting a Declaration of Independence or ratifying it, that we must hang together or we'll be hanged alone.

[02:10]

So this American ideal of freedom, in some ways relates to our ideal of Buddhist liberation in many ways. And the Bodhisattva principles are part of our national ideals. So it's an interesting holiday for us in many ways. So I want to talk about that today. The Declaration of Independence drafted by Tom Jefferson and others said, we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. Among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Well, of course, it was only men, and it was only property men, and it was only white men who were thought to be created equal.

[03:16]

And I don't know why they felt the need to say endowed by our creator, because many of those who were involved in Jefferson and others in the Declaration were deists. They weren't a part of, certainly not the modern American version of theistic religion. But anyway... Still, there's something in those words that has been inspiring to the principle of equality, to life and liberty and inalienable rights. And Jefferson himself, who I have this kind of ambivalent relationship to myself. I appreciated him very much and kind of less so as time goes by. But anyway, he vowed eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the human mind, which is a good bodhisattva motto, I think.

[04:23]

He also said the price of liberation is ongoing vigilance. or his, I'm rephrasing, his price of liberty is eternal vigilance, but that's a good motto for Zazen too. The price of liberation is ongoing vigilance. That our practice, even though in our style of practice, you know, it's not edge of the seat, you know, kind of macho Zen, where I'm going to come around with a stick and hit you if you close your eyes or something. Still, we pay attention. And our practice is this ongoing vigilance to how it is to be present as ourselves this morning, but also how it is that we take care of our lives through the week and through our expression of this interdependence and independence. So the price of liberation, whether we think of it as social freedom or societal freedom or

[05:25]

Personal freedom is ongoing vigils. And the Fourth of July is also a time to celebrate this ideal of liberty and justice for all. So Abraham Lincoln talked about government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish. from the earth. And actually, I live near Lincoln Square where there's a statue of Abraham Lincoln with that motto. And yet, on the 4th of July, I always feel some responsibility as a clergy person, some responsibility to the precepts of liberation and to the Bodhisattva precepts to speak about how our country is doing now in terms of liberty and justice for all. So that's what I'm going to do today. And it seems like now we have government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations as sanctioned by our courts.

[06:34]

But even looking back at the history of all this, well, it's interesting. I just got back a couple of nights ago from being almost for two weeks in New Mexico, visiting our Sangha member and ancient Dragon Zen gate priest, Kazon Titus, who had to leave Chicago a year ago and relocate to New Mexico. And so I visited our affiliate Sangha. They're called Valley Dragon Zen Sangha in Albuquerque. and spoke there and also at a place in Santa Fe. And so for the Native Americans, the American Revolution was not, the Declaration of Independence was not an indication of liberty and justice for all.

[07:40]

In New Mexico, I felt very much Native culture, Native American culture and arts were very present, very prevalent. It's very much part of the arts there and the culture, Hispanic culture also. Titus took us, there's many reservations around there, Pueblo people in that area particularly, but the Navajo are nearby. And anyway, it's, so more than in any parts of the country, I don't know, it seems to me that there's this presence of Native Americans very closer to the surface in the culture. We went to the Jemez Pueblo, I'm going to pronounce it wrong, but... Beautiful, beautiful countryside. We went to the original Pueblo, which is up the mountains from the current one, where the Spanish had kind of covered over the Kiva and built a big stone cathedral.

[08:50]

And then in 1680, there was a revolt against the Spanish, and they threw all the Pueblos, different Pueblo peoples gathered together and threw the Spanish out. for about 20 years at least. And we had a guided tour by one of the elders there and talking about the way that the native culture survived. And we actually have on our altar, our Tenzo Asian Nancy did a vacation recently where she went to, amongst other places, South Dakota and the Badlands. And the rock on our altar there is from a monument that's being built. I don't know, it's been being created. When did they start? Sorry, 1948. 48, so longer than my lifetime, but they're building near Mount Rushmore, a big monument to Crazy Horse.

[09:50]

great native warrior and leader. So that rock is part of the mountain that's been blasted away to create this beautiful image of Crazy Horse. So again, one of our founding fathers. So anyway, many ways to look at this Declaration of Independence and liberty and justice for all. And recently I heard another view of the American Revolution from a University of Houston African-American history professor named Gerald Horne who's written a book called A couple of books, but one is called The Counterrevolution of 1776, Slave Resistance and the Origins of the United States of America. And his interesting, you know, and I don't know, but one view of the American Revolution is that it was a pro-slavery rebellion against British abolitionism. So, you know, when we look at history, there's many ways to look at any event that went on in the past.

[10:57]

So, you know, there's no one right view of history. But this is an interesting perspective, and I think it's worthy of consideration, that he says what helped to prompt the July 4, 1776 event was the perception amongst European settlers on the North American mainland that London was moving rapidly towards abolition. This perception was prompted by a case called Somerset's Case. The case decided in London, June 1772, which seemed to suggest that abolition, which not only was going to be ratified in London itself, was going to cross the Atlantic and basically sweep through the mainland, thereby jeopardizing numerous fortunes, not only based upon slavery, but the slave trade. And the slave trade was important in the north as well as slavery was important in the south, so it was very important up until the Civil War and to the whole United States economy.

[11:59]

The justice in the 1772 case in England said the state of slavery is of such a nature that it is incapable of being introduced on any reasons, moral or political, but only by positive law. It is so odious that nothing can be suffered to support it but the positive law. Whatever inconveniences therefore may follow from a decision, I cannot say this case is allowed or approved by the law of England, and therefore the black person in the case must be discharged. Anyway, it took till 1807 for the British Empire to totally abolish slavery throughout the British Empire. But anyway, according to this... Professor, that was one of the motivating forces for the American Revolution and that actually African Americans in the colonies fought, many more fought on the British side than on the colonist side. And then, in other words, they fought from the French and Spanish side.

[13:06]

So another interesting perspective, and I think it's important for us to hear this, given all the things that are happening in our country now. And I'm also going to quote from Frederick Douglass, who said in 1852—so I'll just read a little bit of this great African-American abolitionist leader— what have I or those I represent to do with your national independence? He said this on July 4th in 1852. Are the great principles of political freedom and of natural justice embodied in that Declaration of Independence extended to us? Am I therefore called upon to bring our humble offerings to the national altar to confess the benefits and express devout gratitude for the blessings resulting from your independence to us? Your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. The blessings in which you this day rejoice are not enjoyed in common. The rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity, and independence bequeathed by your fathers is shared by you, not by me.

[14:10]

This Fourth of July is yours, not mine. You may rejoice. I must mourn. what to the american slave is your fourth of july i answer a day that reveals to him more than all the other days of the year the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is a constant victim to him your celebration is a sham your boasted liberty an unholy license your national greatness swelling vanity your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless your denunciation of tyrants' brass-fronted impudence, your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery, your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity are, to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy, a thin veil to cover up crimes that would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of these United States at this very hour. The hypocrisy of the nation must be exposed and the crimes against God and man must be proclaimed and denounced.

[15:16]

So that's Frederick Douglass speaking on July 4th in 1852. So, and of course, you know, despite having now an African American president, the situation for African Americans in our country is not so, is not equal. And the class war, you know, so it's not just a matter of race. The class war in our country, it seems to me, is increasing in the past several decades, and even more recently. There's a very high percentage of, compared to, non-African American men who are in prison now. So there's clearly prejudice in our legal system if we look at young African American men in prison as compared to the bankers who committed fraud that caused our economic system to go into crisis and collapse. It's pretty obvious.

[16:18]

An increasing lack of opportunity for many So I feel some responsibility to our precepts of speaking the truth to speak about these things on the Fourth of July. There's also the lack of justice for young people. So the situation, and this applies to many people in our Sangha, for college graduates, with high debt. Just looking briefly on the internet, our nation's combined student loan debts now hit about $1 trillion and increasing exponentially, more than any other of our debts. There's a book called Generation Debt, and it says college tuition has increased more than any other good or service to the entire US economy since 1978.

[17:25]

And it's kind of set up to increase even more financial aid. College financial aid lenders are exempt from all sorts of requirements that other kinds of lenders are legally bound to have. The average student leaving college now owes $40,000, according to the Wall Street Journal, and that's growing at an exponential rate. So what does this say about liberty and justice for all, about the principles, which I think the principles are there and are important, that all people are created equal, endowed with certain inalienable rights, and that... We talk about equal justice under the law and I think it's important that we live in a country that has such principles. I think these are in accord with Bodhisattva ideas. So we are doing this meditation practice in the context of of course expressing our own independence but through the awareness of interdependence that we are connected and that

[18:41]

Those, we're connected. We're connected with everyone. That if others are suffering, that affects us. We can't be enlightened just by ourselves. So in early Buddhism, they talked about reaching nirvana, which was to be free from all of, you know, all of these struggles and all of the injustices and all of the problems of the world of fame and gain and so forth. And that nirvana was to, you know, basically to leave the world. But in our tradition, the Bodhisattva tradition, we don't try and escape from our everyday reality. We meditate and settle and do all of our practices to appreciate the depth of our experience right now, the actuality of this immediate reality, and to enjoy that and appreciate that.

[19:49]

And then we see that we are connected. So in addition to young people, African Americans, Native Americans, now, especially this last week, again, there's this injustice against women that is becoming more and more part of our society with the Supreme Court ruling. So I wanted to add that. This ruling that allows corporations to block health care to women. that women cannot have contraception or choice in terms of their own medical care. So one of the women Supreme Court judges who, voted against this ruling, Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, amongst many other things, the conservative majority has effectively endorsed the idea that religious objections to insurance that covers any form of preventative health care for women have merit.

[20:55]

So just on the basis of religious freedom, one religion has been, one view of religion has been privileged over another. One of the good things that Thomas Jefferson did was to try and talk about not having state religion, to have no religion having control over the state. So, you know, we're having difficulty. So this ruling by the Supreme Court has been described as another flat declaration that corporations have more rights than people. and that supposedly people of faith who own corporations can peddle their ongoing discrimination against LGBT employees as well. One United States senator who agrees with the court's decision says, because women only use contraception for recreational behavior, unquote, and not for significant and pressing medical reasons or motivations for personal freedom.

[22:08]

So... You know, I feel like there is part of what's happening in this society that we should recognize that is really strongly prejudiced against women now. I feel offended as a man to see this. along with all the other prejudices I've described. And this is something that we should recognize as practitioners. A columnist, a very prominent columnist for the Washington Post recently argued that women on college campuses only claim rape because they want the coveted status of being a rape survivor. And as has been recently reported, the incidence of rape on college campuses is really appalling.

[23:13]

Colleges, including in Chicago, often punish the victims de facto more than the perpetrators. The perpetrators aren't reported. In talking about all of this, I want to speak about these issues of injustice, because today is a day that's, or the 4th of July is a day to celebrate the values of America, and I think they're significant, and I think these values are important, and they accord with principles of our practice and our teaching. Not that Buddhists are perfect beings either, of course. We see the activities in Burma now by the Burmese, supposedly Buddhists, who are acting against the Muslim minority.

[24:18]

So as human beings, we all have problems. But anyway, I... I feel like saying something, and hopefully we can have some discussion about all these issues, historical and current treatments of Native Americans, historical and current mistreatment of African Americans, economic class injustices, injustices against minorities, against young people, and now more and more mistreatment of women. that reflect the failure of the official American values of decency and also transgress against principles in our society. All that said, again, I think the American principles of freedom, the notion of equal justice under the law and liberty and justice for all is still alive and that's important. just to have these ideals that, you know, are still proclaimed as part of the Fourth of July, it's very important.

[25:24]

So the Asian Buddhist traditions that gave us this practice and these Dharma traditions, these teaching traditions, didn't have that, actually. You know, they were in futile situations where... there wasn't even a pretext of equal justice under the law. There were feudal lords, there were warlords. So there's something about the possibilities for American Buddhism that I think are really wonderful, that these ideals suit our Bodhisattva precepts of benefiting all beings, of non-harming, of speaking truth, including speaking truth to power, of not misusing sexuality, of not speaking of faults of others, but speaking of reality and not being possessive, of not harboring ill will.

[26:27]

So I'm not speaking of these injustices as a way of blaming others. I'm just trying to say, well, what do we do? And I don't know what to do. But these ideals are what the rest of the world appreciates in America. along with rock and roll and Hollywood movies and that kind of stuff. So, you know, Dr. King said that the arc of freedom moves towards justice. And part of our practice is this long view. So we talk about, you know, I talk about Dogen Hoffman, the 13th century founder of this tradition in Japan. We talked about Shakyamuni Buddha 2,500 years ago. So, you know, we can have this long view, and also we have to look at what's, you know, the Buddha work of relieving suffering. The reason for Buddha's appearing in the world, according to the Lotus Sutra, which is part of our tradition, is to help beings to the path of awakening.

[27:32]

And that means including us, you know. Each of us has all of these, you know, ideals and also... inner conflicts and confusion. So the good news, the good news in all of this is there's lots of good job opportunities for Bodhisattvas. There are lots of good things for us to do. There's lots of work out there and in here. So So all of the problems I'm referring to in our society, I think it's good to name them, to point them out, to be honest about what's going on. I think we have to do that. The first thing is to just pay attention, to be aware, to look at what's going on, to not be afraid to say what's going on.

[28:34]

But again, this means that there's lots of work to do. And so there are good things for each of us to do. And it doesn't mean that any one of us has to do it all ourselves. We couldn't. And we don't know how to fix all this. And that's not even the point. But each of us can do something. And part of what Sangha's about, community, is that so I know people in this room are working in various ways to be helpful. in many of these areas. So how do we support each other to response to the sadness and the distress and the confusion that all of these situations in our society help to cause and to, and seem to be, you know, in some ways getting worse.

[29:37]

At the same time, there are many, many people who are trying to make it better. So we can respond. And each of us can respond in our own way in some area. So, happy Independence Day. Happy Interdependence Day. It's the 4th of July, so I've let off some fireworks this morning, a little bit. And I would love to hear your responses or comments. So please, feel free. Please feel free. Yes, Kat. I'm part Native American, and I read some books by four Native Americans. Native Americans don't have a concept of owning. They don't have a concept of ownership. And that's like an American idea. And when I look at the Northern Rockies and the fact that the Native Americans, they had this concept of ownership.

[30:47]

you know, natural balance. I mean, it just was, because they had no concept of ownership. And the animals were just free, and then, you know, you know, nature was just free and there was just so much balance. And then Americans, they just had this thing, you know, this concept of ownership and, you know, competition and the ranches and it just threw everything, you know, out of balance, you know. And so I just, you know, I really admire the Native American culture. idea of, you know, just the concept of no ownership, just free, you know, the animals, the wildlife. Yes, thank you. Yes. So the sense of all my relations and, yeah, we have a few Native peoples in our sangha and people who are partly Native. And, yes, it's... And I've done a little bit of study of Native American practices, and I think for American Buddhism to really take root, you know, I'm thinking over the next century, we have to connect with Native practices.

[32:07]

And part of the values that we've been talking about recently about the, about the landscape of mountains and waters and partly we need to see that through the native peoples. The Buddhism in Asia always integrated with the native spirit traditions and the different cultures it went to. So I was excited to see in New Mexico how much there is a kind of sense of awareness of native peoples. Not enough, of course. And yes, the problem of consumerism and private property and how that's... Possessiveness. One of our precepts is about not being possessive. How do we start to have values of cooperation and collaboration rather than competition and aggression as part of how we start to make these changes.

[33:12]

Thank you. Other comments? I really challenge your paraphrasing that quote and offering it as the price of liberation as it is. In other words, it is a witness. Yes. When I think of shopping, that's what I see. Awareness. And with awareness, compassion. Yes. Through my experience, if I think and act in awareness, compassion automatically follows. Yeah, so traditionally in Buddhism we talk about wisdom and compassion, insight and compassion going together.

[34:21]

And so when we see our connectedness, so wisdom is about seeing this connectedness, and when we see that, it's not about helping others. We see that others is us, and, you know, how can we try and, you know, do unto others before they do unto us, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. But yeah, how do we open our hearts? That's simple. Thank you. Right. Speaking to the awareness, I think that we can, a lot of, I guess I'm getting to a place where To make change, I think we have to start sort of with the idea of not doing further on. And it's so easy to get caught up in this us versus them mentality. And I think a lot of what we're seeing today is people that traditionally had power, people like me, you know, white middle class guys, straight, have

[35:38]

had that ability to kind of control their lives. And we're looking at a world that's very changed, where the ideas of race and gender are being undercut, where I'm going to be in the minority in 20 years or whatever, compared to everybody else. In the world you already are. In the world I already am, yeah. But we looked in a bubble. And so I think some of that is not just to, OK, let's change that, but rather, let's acknowledge reality as it is. You know, be here on the cushion where we can't, we have to have those mindsets drop away, where it's not an us versus them. And this is a little disjointed, I'm sorry, but talking about the Native Americans and their view of property. And there's the story of how the settlers bought Manhattan for a bunch of bees, which is really kind of a very light way of talking about that.

[36:43]

Whereas to the Native Americans, you can't own land. So they got some bees. They got a great deal out of it. Or there was an exchange with the United States when the Native Americans showed up on Manhattan and got shot. Right. And so... That sense of property as being part of something you can own, something that will build your ego, leads to violence. And I think what we do here is we drop away that sense that you can own something, that it is something to feed your ego. And by dropping away that ego, we drop away a lot of that violence. And we just stop doing that harm of creating those boundaries. Yeah, right. So it's not, you know, the value of whoever dies with the most toys wins is just doesn't work. Other comments? Libby.

[37:44]

I just want to... I was stuck on my... I just need to hear that on the board... you know, buttons going up is what it sounded like. If I can't go deep, or if it's like, [...] But I remember trying to sort of sip of that experience on the storm and was like, oh my gosh, you know, and then that was sort of this, you know, fear of thoughts coming. And so, you know, as you were going through these different realities, you know, feeling the impact on myself, you know, and...

[38:52]

Each issue has its own set of feelings it brings out. You know, you start coming up with this issue, it just sort of, like, tears out, which I didn't expect. It was just sort of, what happens? But each one of them is sort of troubling. So, anyway, it's just, it's interesting, like, this awareness thing about And being aware of what's happening inside of myself primarily, you know, just starting here. This is my reality moment to moment. But then now I can get out of awareness of more complex issues that don't necessarily, you know, depending where I situate myself or how much, you know, choice of that. But depending what hits you experientially in your life, you may or may not be aware day to day of Like some of the things you're talking about, you know, our mental issues, you know, where it's like the frog in the water or something, where, you know.

[39:59]

So, or maybe even different than that, because if it's outside of your little bubble, you know, so. So it's interesting that bringing kinds of awareness beyond just the present moment also to these kind of more complex systemic issues that require something else from us, that require thought, not just nonverbal experiencing, but reading, thinking, talking to other people, asking questions, you know. So I really appreciate it. Yeah, part of our practice is to look within, to settle, to find our own inner centering and communion with that which is deep and creative in our own energies.

[41:07]

That part is important, but there's a danger that people can do that as a way of escaping from and ignoring the stuff around them. And that's not really the point of our practice. The point of our practice is to find our own inner resources to be able to respond, and they're not separate. our connection, and our inner peace. Yes? Well, I remind him, in this context, what Libby said, things he just said. There's this expression that Chuck McConnor used to use, the spiritual materialism, which was sort of a misuse of certain techniques to sort of reinforce a sense of self and strengthen self. And I think Zazen, you know, properly engaged, which involves being challenged by a sangha, and interacting with teachers, and, you know, letting yourself take in, finding things, talking about state, you use the word bubble, you know, bubbles up, and that's precisely the point, is, you know, as you go further into it, you realize that that boundary is not only a state kind of problem,

[42:21]

and you know you go further and further and further and you know what is the down three up to the south you know what is the south and john macy has the uh world's world south world's lover and is that the title but then after they stopped they met this Yeah, and Gary Snyder has this wonderful slogan that Zen practices about Zazen and cleaning the temple, which we're going to do in a little bit. And it's up to you to decide where the boundaries of the temple are. So, you know, we will be cleaning our temple's face after this, but also this means cleaning, you know, How do we clean Chicago? How do we clean Perfect Park Road? How do we take care of, you know, all of the peoples, you know, that we're aware of? Jerry? I was thinking about being aware of what goes on. I'm just, you know, I want to... We're...

[43:25]

I think that's it. You spend quite a bit of time quiet and still. It helps to sort of navigate all the information that comes at us, just sort of figure out where to go and listen to you. Because it's hard now to actually be aware of that attention because it's harder for me to find information that's reliable and just. That's true. Sort of Yeah, so government of, by, for the corporations. We also have media of, by, for the corporations. Hadn't been into being used myself years and years ago. I can say that. So I'll just put out a plug for democracynow.org. But there are places to get real information. But I'm still feeling traumatized by that Supreme Court decision this last week.

[44:33]

I'm a man, not a woman, but I still feel just horrified. And I'm sorry for all the women in the room and for all the men too. It's just, this is what's happened to our country. So just, I'm sorry, that was just little pappers to fireworks, excuse me. So it's almost time to stop, but if anybody else has something to say or express, please feel free. Any last comments? Hi, Laurel. I saw a good movie last night called Life Itself about the life of Roger Ebert. And he said his theory about how to build the way he grew compassion for himself was by going to a movie because you saw everybody's story and you got to be into all these lives and then... He grew compassion that way.

[45:34]

That is wonderful. Of course, that was his job, to go to movies. But it's just a response to your, how do you sort through this information? Thank you. Anything else? Well, thank you all very much.

[45:57]

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