And I'd like to thank you, Yvonne, and I'd just like to say that before I get to the actual topic of the rest of this setting, I want to give you the setting of this session, where I was with my wife for two months. Very recently, February 10th, April 14th. I will start first. Now, this is where the Dalai Lama has built his residence, the Dalai Lama and the new monastery, right over here.

[01:19]

Well, this other white spot, the top is the village of Macao Gang. How often does the ceremony take place? This ceremony? Well, this was very special, and, well, it will be a long time before it happens again. So, is it usual to have this kind of initiation ceremony? Ah, yes, it is. This is the last day of the Shastra. Now, I have to read one of the sutras.

[02:44]

Well, in the meantime, Oh, just a moment. What time did I finish? ...who were there. I knew most of them who were there regularly. Of course, not the ones from Kathmandu, I didn't know them. But the ones who were there, there were about six or eight, maybe about eight who lived. But the two I knew the best were the ones who lived right across the ridge from me. That was Brasho and George. But when Brasho told me his name, I couldn't catch it very well, and it sounded to me like Busho. And so, from that time, I called him Busho, which in Japanese means Buddha Nature. And he's the Dutchman.

[03:48]

All these six or eight were studying under a certain lama called Geshe-Rabten, a very learned lama who was the tutor of the Dalai Lama. And he doesn't know any English at all. And they would have as an interpreter a young lama named Gunsar Rinpoche, who was a very bright young man, but who can't speak quite a bit of English. In fact, he had learned Hindi pretty well, too, early. And thereby, they could get instruction from that very learned lama, Geshe-Rabten. And he would assign to them deities to meditate on. In other words, after he interviewed them, he decided that this particular person should meditate on such and such a deity. So, for example, George was meditating on Maitreya, and Busho was meditating on Pairochana.

[05:08]

Maybe you know that name, Maitreya and Pairochana? In the beginning of everyday services, these monks have this chant. They're chanting to the Dalai Lama to have long life, etc. I'll skip some of this and go around the place.

[06:22]

They're still at it. So they stop that chant. Stop that chant. Stop that chant.

[07:58]

Stop that chant. [...] These are chanting dharmas or mantras of the Dalai Lama. This chases away the demons. In other words, you first have to consecrate the place. It chases away out all the demons so that you can have a nice holy place to have the initiation.

[09:03]

So this is now all the muttering. They're consecrating the place. Stop that chant. [...]

[10:33]

Stop that chant. Stop that chant. Stop that chant. All right. Now he starts giving instruction. It's right around here that they threw up all those white scars asking instruction from the Dalai Lama. Stop that chant. Well, since you don't understand Tibetan, it doesn't matter. Play the thing. Thank you. OK. So anyway... What was that? Oh, you would like to hear some more?

[11:39]

OK. You heard it before when he was chanting. He's using that specialty. Now this is his normal voice. OK. See, starting from now, when he starts to speak, they all put those red bands around him. He's now speaking to the candidates for initiation who have all those red bands on their heads. And all the rest of this character takes, they have those red bands on. All the rest of it was that initiation. You saw what it's like.

[12:50]

How come all of that? OK. All right.

[14:16]

OK. [...]

[15:49]

OK. OK. Go on. Some of it is the chanting, and some spoken, and so on and so on. In the meantime, the audience has to do certain things, and they do certain things really.

[17:37]

Once in a while, they do something else. But mostly in teaching. That's just to give you an idea of some of the sounds, as far as I've heard. It's in the Kalachakra, initiation. That went on for some days. OK. Now, to get more to the subject of today, which is impressions of the Westerners. You see, the Westerners are in this certain situation, where they were cutting and putting down these batons. A few years back, the Indian government sort of cracked down on that. They were, in their defense, there was some good reason. They wanted to discourage the movement of Westerners and some other people they couldn't control to various border areas.

[18:43]

Especially, you know. They thought they had only, some of them had only a pretense of going to the border areas, studying the Tibet, where there might have been spies or something. Anyway, they cracked down. They passed some kind of law or ruling that's restricting some of this activity. And this has led to some harassment of these Westerners in some areas. For example, down in, around Sarnath. It's a place right north of Benares. Some Westerners who had tried to work with the Tibetans had been harassed by the police. But up where I was, there wasn't very much of it. I couldn't see anything, so it wasn't anything to get on very well.

[19:45]

And George and Bouchot managed to stay for quite a long time up there. In the ridge, even though they were threatened with expulsion by a lawyer. About a couple of times because they had been doing the unauthorized things like using an adjoining building for meditation, which they hadn't. And taking in all sorts of other people from time to time who wandered around the Himalayan area. And smoking, or using certain narcotics from time to time to circulate in that area. Well, anyway, but they were still there. Of course, the letters got to me. I mean, I got some from them. This boy George, this Frenchman, has no respect at all for his famous city of Paris. He has the view that all cities have been a failure.

[20:52]

They're all a perversion of human nature. So was Paris. He took a trip to Missouri and said, Missouri gathers the richest Indians and the most unpleasant Michiganians. But in a way it is very good to see mundane life and worldly pleasures. Desi Robinson has been retreating for several years practicing Yamantaka. That's this guru up there. But now in this letter that we got from Yamantaka. Well, Yamantaka is a Tantric deity who has overcome Yama, the Lord of Death. Well, there's a little bit more about that in here.

[21:58]

The question would be meditation on Yamantaka. Or practicing the sadhana of Yamantaka, the evocation of Yamantaka. Musho said in this letter that Geshe-la has moved a little higher up out of the Dhamma. Now five minutes walk from the Rao, Raoji Buddha. It's because he starts to do a very long meditation. Maybe for some years. One of the subjects is 100,000 prostrations. After that, meditation on Yamantaka. And the meditation on shunyata, that's voidness. That's not a little hay. Now there are two days teaching.

[23:02]

I think he means by that that he only teaches other people and his disciples two days a week. They can go up there and get things from him only on two days a week. Now, Dina. Dina means to have a girl. Dina is a Swedish girl that married a boy from San Francisco. Where we... I know. And they were both meditating on a deity that had been given them by this Tibetan girl. She was already quite big with child when we were there. And they said... He said the deliverance was in the Congregation Hospital. It was quite a long trip, 36 hours. But she was constantly in good condition.

[24:02]

Both were living in a small house which is separated from the hospital. When a nurse came in and saw the picture of Buddha on the wall, she said, Take it off the wall. It is here a Christian house. There you see how narrow-minded they can be. And that even in a region where Buddhism is quite present. But once you do such a moment, you just smile. He means they are very narrow-minded. And he means they don't have much humility. That's to say they have very little humility that was portrayed by their own picture.

[25:07]

These two and all the rest of them were very sincere and they would get up very early in the morning and don those religious garments and meditate. I guess before eating anything. They go through several hours of meditation on their deity. That's the form of Tibetan meditation. You are giving them a deity to meditate on. And the procedure... I happen to know from personal experience with that girl, one of the main procedures by which he decides what deity to give to the person. He decides that that person has the seed in him of such a deity.

[26:19]

Or the potentiality. And so he assigns that deity to that person to meditate on. That's the seed. And they would memorize usually some verse or set of verses that went with that deity. Usually in a prasing type or scripture type. Which they would constantly rehearse when they meditated on that deity. Ordinarily in Tibetan practice, when a person has been initiated with a deity, they got to that stage initially, and that deity is conferred on the person. And that deity has gotten to an advanced stage. Then the guru usually gives him, as a memorial of that,

[27:28]

a good picture of the deity. These are these little painted miniatures usually. They're put in very good representation of the deity. Now, of these persons that were there, I would say that they all went through very strenuous circumstances. Usually they had very little money. And they went very abstinently to make their money go as far as was necessary. And I was quite pleased with them on the whole. Whether they got any great insight or achievement out of it, I do not know. I have been there about half a year or more in such meditation.

[28:35]

I would say that the circumstances there are surely much different from those which many of you are familiar with, in terms of practicing Zazen, whether it's gone to Japanese or English school, or in common California, you can do. Because as far as I know, in such Zazen meditation, the candidates or disciples are not given as many representations of a deity to meditate on, nor the form of a deity. So it's somewhat more abstract, seems to me, in the Japanese type of Zazen meditation. Is there a question about that? Perhaps some question would be nice.

[29:50]

In what form do they meditate? How do they hold their mind? They sit in this meditative posture, you know, with crossed legs. You know, the usual meditative posture. They're supposed to fold their legs in, you know, in standard Buddhism. You know, break their bones in a standard way. Yes, they would sit on something like that. Well, to the extent that I saw them, they would just sort of hold their hands in their lap. But they might have been doing some other things that I didn't know about. Because they didn't like to be seen anyway, you know. That's right.

[30:52]

When they were sitting inside their place of meditation, they didn't like to be bothered. They didn't like anybody to see what they were doing. Uh... What? I mean, for example, these two. This is Busho, who's a Dutchman, and George, a Frenchman. They were... They would dress themselves up in religious robes and sit that way inside their meditative self. You know, early in the morning, meditate for a couple of hours before breakfast. Every morning they'd do this. As far as I knew, it was in the morning. It was especially in the morning. They were... Well, they could read books. Sometimes they would have meetings with their guru. They'd go down the mountainside with appointments and just answer the questions.

[31:57]

Because of these interviews, because of these preachings of the Dalai Lama, to which all the Lamas had to attend, that actually cut down on the time he could devote to such. And so, before the Dalai Lama started London lectures, he was meeting every day with them. Well, he might be trying maybe two days a week with a certain one, then two days a week with a certain other one, and so on. Because he couldn't talk to all of them at the same time, actually. But they all got appointments each week, and had been doing this for quite a long time. Would they be seeing their guru by themselves or in a group? No, that's what I mean. They could have a couple. I think this Paul and his wife would go together, this Paul and Gina, and this George and Bouchot, who lived on this next ridge from me, would go together.

[33:03]

Because sometimes the answer to a question to one person can cross to the other person. Since they were staying together, meditating in the same place, it was natural they should go together. And as I said, all this was interpreted for them by the younger Lama, who knew English quite well. Would they pretty much then left on their own, and had a formal contact with their teacher, and would they participate in such a community? There wasn't too much community action. Of course, when I was there, these initiations took place, and they were attending, and they said they could, although they couldn't understand the sentence, actually.

[34:06]

Except that they passed it by. It was a weak point, but at least they saw what was going on, and heard it all, and attended, and also sat out in front of the poor house, and played cards. And it just doesn't matter anyway, because they couldn't learn enough in that short time. How long did they stay? Well, they stayed different times. Some and some have been staying, and also in Kathmandu, I have to know a little bit of the situation there. Some of them were there for over a year, and some of these people studied under Lama. Some didn't have the means to do so. In other words, they might get, or they'd get hounded out by the government.

[35:10]

But sometimes they'd come under three months visa, visitor's visa, and then they could get one extension rather easily. You know, they could stay six months. But then they got, it was very hard to get another extension for three months. So they could all make it for six months, but very few managed to make it more than that, because they just didn't have the right visas to stay longer. So that's why some of them would, after staying for a certain amount down there, would hightail it up to Kathmandu, because, see, then that was a different place. In other words, that's a different country. So when their visa was run out in India, then they'd go out and study under another Lama up in Kathmandu for as long as the Nepalese government would let them stay there. How about Sikkim? Well, how about Sikkim? Oh, Sikkim? Sikkim is even harder, much harder. And the Indian government is very sensitive about that

[36:17]

because of some of those border clashes that they had a couple years back. You may remember in the papers, it was about three years ago that they had those Chinese incursions across the border there. And so they have a lot of troops in that area, and they just don't like... Yes, Indian troops. And they just don't like foreigners coming there for a long period of time. You can come there for, say, two days or something like that, and if you have an invitation from the Sikkim government, a special invitation, you could stay longer. But even so, you couldn't stay as long as you might want to. It's much harder to stay there. Did Kathmandu listen much to the other people? Say this? Did Kathmandu, as far as staying there, did you have trouble there, too? Uh, no. I was in Kathmandu, and there were a lot more of these Westerners studying under Tibetans

[37:21]

in Kathmandu than there was in Dharamsala. There was a big group, and I met them when they came down to attend the service, because I knew the two lamas under whom they were studying in Kathmandu. But I can't say anything about them in terms of how devoted they were up in Kathmandu. They had... Some of them had rooms in some of those monasteries. They were kind of visitors' rooms. They're not elegant at all, you know, all somewhat primitive, but they were actually in the room. It's pretty hard to stay up there without being in some room there. Thank you. There's really no place to pitch a tent up there in Kathmandu.

[38:23]

So you have to find some monastery which has some rooms that you can stay in up there in Kathmandu. Whereas down in Dharamsala, these people were staying in private cottages and you know, little houses that were owned by Indians or whatnot, because they would rent a room or a unit. And they were not expensive at all, especially the place with George, as we showed, they didn't have any electricity and a lot of other amenities that we might want. And the fireplace was a very bad one, you know, it's no sense in ruining it, trying to burn any wood in it, and so on. So they got in very cheap. That was the first thing we saw. Aside from the rent and the money that they might have, do you know anything about the

[39:24]

any kind of payment that you make to the lama that you study under? Is there a system like that? Or how did they do that? Well, they didn't have any... Of course, in Tibet, they had a system of presents. You were always supposed to bring something. That was standard. Here, I think it was the policy of the Dalai Lama to break up some of the exclusiveness policies that they had in the past. And so he was deliberately encouraging their receiving Westerners this way and giving them instruction. And I don't think there was any particular remuneration that they gave, or ever did give. Of course, eventually they did do something,

[40:29]

and you could do a favor sometimes. For example, they answered a lot of questions that I needed to be answered, but in return they wanted a couple of works, you know, to translate into English, which I did for them, because I read the past books in English very well. So I translated a few things for them. And then besides that, I took lots of pictures, of which I'll send them copies, which is a kind of a second hand after others. You know, it is expensive to develop and produce a color film, and you can't possibly put them out. What did the Dalai Lama think of the system of remuneration? Well, the... It's hard to know what all their sources are, and of course I didn't want to prod them, because they would probably like to tell me. In terms of the... For example, the Tibetan nursery

[41:31]

does get some kind of allowance from the Indian government. And... How some of these Dalai Lamas were meant, I don't know. I don't know. There aren't very many that are, you might say, funded. A lot of them have to figure out a way to manage income by selling things. No. No, they don't. They don't. No, I have... I've never seen any evidence of it. Do you have a feeling that there is a... that there is some kind of code against that? A feeling of why don't they do it?

[42:34]

Well, if they did it, of course it may vary. There are different sects of Tibetans. I don't know. Maybe it might be one or another. I think the basic reason why they wouldn't do it, it would make a false... It would give a false basis for teaching. In other words, the teacher should want to accept a certain disciple for teaching, and he should teach him what he feels like teaching him. But when it was put on a money basis, then someone would demand that he taught so-and-so, because he's paying for it, and they don't like to do that. They want to be taught to be free, and that's how it's done. And the only way they could be free is to not have it on money basis. I presume, but in any case, I've never seen any bargaining. Questioner asks a question inaudible.

[43:52]

Questioner asks a question inaudible. Yes. There must be some. These high lamas, and of course I was meeting other high lamas. Oh, I forgot. There is one source of income, which they have, which these high lamas have, and this is from the layman, which is to give blessings. In other words, there's a stream. In fact, they usually set aside some hour during the day, or some time during the day, in which they get a stream of these people coming to get their blessings, and all these people leave something. That's right. They do get paid for blessings. They definitely do, and that's one of their chief sources, I think,

[45:09]

especially since sometimes I've seen a whole stream of people coming in. Well, yes, they're supposed to leave something. They may not leave much, because they don't have much to leave, but I think according to the system, if you're well-heeled yourself, you're supposed to leave more, and you'll see there's lots of income from those stream of people coming in to, you know, one after another, get the blessing of their mama. So that's one source. It's not enough. And also, they live very economically. Usually, they live just in one little room. They have rooms on themselves, and when the food is prepared by the monastery, they make their own bread and things like that there,

[46:10]

at the monastery. Upstairs, there's a place where, for example, there's a guest house, which is between the dollar line of residence and the monastery. In there, they have a whole bakery where they make things, and when you make those things yourself, you can get a lot from gratitude. You can get a basic subsistence. You can earn a lot at a very small... Well, you see, the 10,000 Tibetans, there are about 75,000 Tibetan refugees. So this is quite a big proportion of them. And of these 10,000 Tibetans,

[47:12]

about 3,000 were monks and 7,000 laymen. And among the 7,000 laymen, there was a big contingent of Tibetan soldiers. I guess a couple thousand of them were Tibetan soldiers. See, the Indian Army has a big... Tibetan soldiers are stationed almost in some border area because they know the terrain very well and can easily live there. Indians don't like to live in some places and don't get along very well. And so they have these Tibetan Indians and the Indian Army on the border. And they all got passes to come to this service. And so a couple thousand of them just showed up for the service. In fact, the whole regiment showed up for the service. And anyway, all told, there were about 10,000.

[48:13]

And of them, almost all of them came from different places. There aren't very many Tibetans. There isn't room for many Tibetans. The village itself only had several hundred people. So most of these people just in person just came from other places. They came from all over. They came from the mountain areas and Kathmandu. And some of them had to hike for a whole month before they got to a place where there was public transportation. If you live up in some of those mountain areas, you can't just go take a bus. It's right down the street. You have to go someplace where you can get a bus. And so they really came from very far off. What are your opinions about the conditions in Tibet? Well, they of course have it very difficult as refugees.

[49:22]

But a great many of them have adapted themselves. A lot of them know Hindi now. And quite a few of them speak English now. And there are a lot of them that are in various trades. Of course, there are a lot of refugees as well. All kinds of difficulties. But as refugees, they seem to be doing pretty well. I mean, you know, considering refugees around the world, we always have a hard time. I think they're holding out both sides pretty well. Do you think it's possible for them to have tuberculosis? That's true. You mean, yes. The children have... There's a tendency for them to have tuberculosis. More than tuberculosis, anemia. There's a tendency to have anemia. It's probably true of all refugee children anywhere in the world.

[50:26]

They can have anemia due to rather severe malnutrition while they're young. And then this makes them prone to all sorts of other diseases. They usually catch this and that because they have anemia. Or have slight cases of anemia or severe cases of those. And so that has to be treated. If you treat these kids, you have to treat their anemia first. Some of them have tuberculosis, but I would say it's anemia that's much worse, especially among kids. Of the Western students who are studying for these different diplomas, is there any generalization you can make about the kind of backgrounds they have? Have they had some kind of previous training in some of these practices? These Westerners, the ones I know, there seems to be a...

[51:30]

There seems to be in some way, which differs in all of them, a kind of alienation from their culture. And then for some unexplained reason, in such circumstances. I don't know why they chose to study under the Tibetans, but it does seem to be pretty typical that they are alienated from their own culture. Just like George who can't stand Paris because cities are a failure. And he wants to find something else. Now why he chose to find this thing among those Tibetans I don't know, but I can't figure out. Did any of the students that you knew have some training, some kind of practice or some experience as a teacher? No. No. They just went there and took that profession.

[52:40]

Could you say anything about the initiation of the Chinese? Chinese? Yes. Well, these initiations... Well, there's a general rule for these initiations? Oh, yes. The people... For example, those 10,000 qualified. You know, the reason why they qualified is because... I mean, officially. I asked that question. Which was... Is that they came... They saved up their money and came from a long distance and, you know, had rather great privations themselves, filled with faith. In other words, out of faith they came there, you know, having saved up their money and came from a long distance.

[53:44]

In other words, you have to have a faith to begin with in the efficacy of the procedure. In other words, if such a thing can take place, if such a mystic transmission from a teacher to a disciple can take place, in other words, there's a value in it that it works. If you don't have a faith, then obviously you're not a proper candidate. You're a scapegoat. Of course, you're not one to be initiated. Because, as I said during my talk, to be initiated in the Kalachakra Tantra, you have to look upon the initiator here, the Dalai Lama, as being this Kalachakra deity in this mystic union of the male and female forces. The cycle of the twelve nuns. And he's supposed to look upon himself that way too in order to be initiated. Now, if you can't bring yourself to look upon him that way,

[54:46]

well, you can't be initiated. What does it mean to take this initiation? Well, furthermore, on the first day, they handed out these... there was some kind of plant they handed out. I didn't know the name of it. It was kind of a branch. And there's a long one and a short one. You're supposed to take it home and put the long one under your bed and the short one under your pillow. And then, you know, examine your dreams to see if you have any auspicious dreams. Of course, auspicious dreams mean also that you are favored by the deity and therefore you can be initiated. I don't dream about dreams. No, you don't dream. Auspicious dreams mean such things as, like, if you dream of mountains and cascades or you dream of groups of lamas or you dream of king and riches.

[55:47]

Such like things. Auspicious dreams. Then, if you have such auspicious dreams, then that shows that you have been favored by the deity. And to be initiated means to get the power, to get that deity enshrined as your tutelary deity. That deity will give you various powers or what the deity can confer. For example, the protection that you'll get through that or the insight into those things that you wouldn't ordinarily have. And so on. That's the deity's privilege of doing. Of course, whether those who are initiated do in fact get this protection and insight, well, that's, again, another point. But the theory is that you have a mystical power of that deity.

[56:50]

Oh, I'm sure that there are cases. Are there? I'm sure that there are cases. I suppose, in general, you could say that of the 10,000 who are there, probably... Now, incidentally, in their theory, if you go through this procedure with faith, then even if you don't get initiation in the true sense, you get a propensity or you have a seat planted in you for the future, so that in some future time you could. I mean, if you have a real faith in the procedure that has gone on. They believe in this seed, this propensity planted in the individual. But it would only be a very few, of course, at any time, who would have a true transmission from the deity. As was certified by their auspicious means.

[58:06]

The night before the initiation took place. Oh, the time when the Dalai Lama, when such a Kalachakra initiation has to be given on the full moon of the third month. And that was the full moon and the third month there. Well, even in the Tibetan calendar, I'll drop that time. And the third lunar month, I guess it is. Anyway, it came out around March 20th, or somewhere around March 22nd or 23rd, that there was a full moon day of the third month. And that's the day that this initiation can be given in any year. Actually, it lasted for three days. The day before the full moon, the full moon, the day after. Well, you see, it can be given.

[59:10]

If it is given at all, it's given at that time in the year. But then, the Dalai Lama, this was the third time it was given, and according to what people were saying, it was the last time he was going to give it. And he would never give it again. I mean, that was the general fear. I don't know what the hell to do with the case. Well, it may have been... I don't know the whole... I asked about this, and they were not very clear about it. But it seems that when he first gave it, he made a kind of a vow that he was going to give it so many times, and that was all. And this third time he gave it was especially in connection with the opening up of the new monastery. And while, theoretically, he could give it again, everybody seemed to be of the view that he never would give it again. Of course, some other people have given the Kalachakra initiation.

[60:13]

I mean, he was the only one to give it. But he would never give it again. And I was told that it's very rare to have the Kalachakra initiation given. It takes a lot of preparation. It takes a lot of time and circumstance. And they just... Well, even like that dance that I photographed with those dancers, there's all kinds of preparations and things. You have to make this very elaborate mandala, which takes quite a long time. And there are all sorts of preparations and darning that have to be done. And it's quite a big festival. There's a lot of preparation. It's just like certain dances in South India. They don't come out very often because they're so elaborate and take so much preparation. They do it maybe once a year, certain of those very lavish Indian dances. Well, here, too,

[61:15]

it takes quite a lot of preparation and it takes a lot of training. For example, when they first put on that dance in the month, those people had to retain quite a long time to go through that dance. And those people who did the music had to do it just right to go with the dance. So all these things take so much preparation that they just don't put it on very often. Now, that's the point. And so when they did put it on, and along with the kind of general view that Dalai Lama wouldn't, that this was the last time he was going to give it, and in connection with this great example of the opening up of his first monastery on Indian soil, where all these people showed up, all these Tibetans showed up for the occasion. That's the thing, sure. Did the Tibetans build the monastery themselves or were they using a building that they had? As to who built it, I think they had a lot of Indian help.

[62:17]

They had the money to build the monastery and they... I'm sure some Tibetans worked on it. They may have some Indians and some Tibetans. Of course, where possible, they would employ Tibetans to give them livelihoods and work to do. But they had money to build the monastery and they employed Tibetans to do it. I don't know. I'm sorry, I forgot your name. It isn't... I just can't remember. I knew it, but I... I had to... But of course, it's just the monastery opposite the Dalai Lama's residence. That's it. Sorry, is that good? Yes, you could, but the...

[63:32]

For example, with these Tibetans, you could and some people have been doing it. You know, some people got... Some students from Harvard had some fellowships to go study there. I met one or two of those. A couple of those... What? Yeah, university-type persons who had some project writing their dissertation on some subjects connected with Tibetan Buddhism were wandering around there and writing their dissertation. Yes, you could. Of course, there are limitations. If you want help from any of these Tibetans, there's a problem of communication. But suppose you do have, in this case, like we had with the Lama. We had an intermediary who could know some New English. Well, still, it doesn't help you very much unless you know what question to ask. You know? They're best at answering questions

[64:34]

rather than giving you spontaneous information. And if you don't know enough about the subject to ask intelligent questions, well, it doesn't do you much good to have them around. And this is the trouble with people who study Buddhism in other places, like Ceylon. They've gone there and stayed for six months or a year, and they don't know what questions to ask. And therefore, they didn't get as good data as they might have. From your experience in New Orleans, what do you think of the book by Eben Nguyen? Oh, they're good books. Oh, yes. The Tibetan Book of the Dead is a good translation. Of course, it was not really translated by Eben Nguyen. It was translated by that Lama, Kasidala Sambha, in conjunction with him, and he sort of Englished it up. Kasidala Sambha knew quite a bit of English, but it wasn't good enough.

[65:36]

And Eben Nguyen, who had written a book earlier on Irish fairy tales, was very good at English, and he just Englished it up and published it. And those are very good books. Very fine translation, except that sometimes the notes by Eben Nguyen are the weakest part of the book. In other words, they're rather speculative, not based upon, you might say, the real tradition of those texts. He doesn't have to say a lot of his own ideas, but he knows that he's influenced by previous, well, by theosophical reasons and so on. There's a certain Western occult tradition, and he puts in those things, but they're not always very fine.

[66:38]

But the basic work, in fact, of the book... If you're going to meditate on a deity, where does it go from there? And... sometimes people don't have sufficient visualizing power to... in terms of their mental imagery...

[67:40]

in that rich and defined way of such... such iconography. But they can at least recite the mantra in a way that they... they can get up in the morning and recite it thousands of times. And then they can try to image the deity in the orthodox form. And they can repeat phrases of the deity. And so on. There are various things that can be done. And of course, if you fast for certain periods of time, that's part of the service to the deity. In other words, you engage in various austerities, and all these austerities are a kind of service to the deity. You're doing these things because you're serving the deity.

[68:46]

You're meditating on that deity. That's why you didn't eat during this time. And so these various austerities all build up in terms of service to the deity. What? Oh, a lama. The Tibetan word lama is a translation of the Sanskrit word guru. And these Tibetan teachers are called lamas. Technically speaking, not because they're wearing certain robes. Are they lamas? They may wear those robes because they have been ordained or they are posthumous or they've entered Buddhist order in the Tibetan system. Technically speaking, they are gurus or lamas and they have disciples. Because a guru should have a disciple.

[69:46]

So once they get disciples, then they're really known as lamas. They're truly lamas. Even so, they might not be good ones. As far as the word itself is concerned, it fits once they get disciples. For example, this particular initiation, it was mostly attended by people of his own sect, the Gelugpa. Some people from the other sects came, but not very many. Not that much, as would indicate the that they were really operational and pleading between these sects. I think there has been criticism of him

[70:48]

on this floor that he has favored the Gelugpa more in terms of, you know, in such ways as can be favored. But the only way I could see is perhaps admitting children to that refugee nursery. But there might be some other ways in which you could favor one sect over the other. But that goes back for many centuries and there's not much you can do about it. These sects, some of them are rivals, just like some of these Protestant sects are rivals. There's just not much you can do about it. Now, there are from time to time ecumenical movements and they are successful in various religious things. Yes? Oh, I was working on

[71:49]

finishing a book on Tibetan miniature painting. Oh, yes. I have a picture of the painter. Oh, painted the mandala. The mandala was not painted. The thangka was painted. But the mandala was made with powder. In other words, it was a square thing made with powder. Almost like a icing on a cake. They built up this very elaborate mandala that was about so square. It was very elaborate. But the thangka was painted by one painter. One of my children. In fact,

[72:50]

I took a picture of him and his thangka. Which I recently accepted. Take that image of the tradition and create that form. See, that form of the Kalachakra deity is handed down traditionally. You have to paint it a certain way. Nevertheless, there are better and worse depictions of the same thing. He's considered a very good painter. Some people just don't get it right. Just don't do it right. I was trying to get a miniature of this deity Mahakala. Black deity with six hands.

[73:51]

And I was not satisfied. I have three of them. Three miniatures from two different painters. Because he's supposed to look furious and none of them can make him look furious. It's sometimes like, you have to be a rather good painter to make him look furious. A lot of these painters are much better at painting a mild deity. You can make a goddess as mild or a deity as mild rather easily, but still they can look real furious. They don't fall flat. They can't get him to look furious. And he can both look furious and not furious, and still the painter can be unsatisfying. The iconographical stipulation. In other words, he's supposed to have this and he's supposed to have so many arms and this thing in this little hand and this thing in that hand and so on. And it's supposed to be so proportioned and he's supposed to have such and such ornaments on him

[74:53]

and he's surrounded by flames and all this. And so these painters know how they're supposed to paint this deity and they all do it in accordance with these lay down stipulations but they do it differently. In other words, some persons just don't get it to come out right. It just doesn't click. They're just not good painters. The mild deity doesn't look so mild and the fierce deity doesn't look so fierce. It's just not a good painter. Even though it satisfies this iconographical stipulation. If Google asks you as a favor to translate the scriptures into English, they must want it. They must want it to be translated into English. Certainly not for them. Well,

[75:56]

one of these things was a little work by founder of the school and they wanted that translated because he wanted to print it up in a little book that actually wouldn't be many pages maybe about three or four pages and give it to the students who come and study there. You know, give it out. A three year brochure so they'd know a little bit more about this subject. In other words, so that he wouldn't always have to be explaining all sorts of things. If it were translated, it would take burden off of the explanation. No, no, that's right.

[77:02]

I was just wondering what it was. Oh, yes. Well, that gets us into a different area of getting a prominent translation. You have to be very well equipped philologically and then also you have to be of a certain mind to be a good translator. You have to be willing to let it go through the way it is without going too fancy. Or toughen. Perhaps I think that it is getting out of time. Thank you.

[78:09]

I hope you've all got a little idea of some of the people studying there. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[78:17]

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