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Shuso Talk

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#shuso-talk Sesshin 2 Day 3

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The talk reflects on the intersection of Zen practice, work, and enlightenment, emphasizing the communal aspect of awakening and drawing on historical Zen stories. Reference is made to the "Vimalakirti Sutra" and several influential Zen figures like Bai Zhang and Yun Yan to illustrate principles of seeing the inherent purity in life and embracing work as a form of enlightened activity. There is an exploration of how traditional Zen teachings adapt to modern contexts, highlighting the importance of collective practice and mutual support within the community.

  • Vimalakirti Sutra: Used to correct a previous misrepresentation about the nature of Buddha's perfect world, asserting that the perception of imperfection comes from one's mental state, not the world's condition.

  • Book of Serenity, Case 69: Featuring Yun Yan and Da Wu, illustrates the notion of "acting within different kinds" and how understanding evolves through engagement with Zen teachings.

  • Avatamsaka Sutra, Chapter 1: Refers to the diverse roles and adornments people bring to the world, reinforcing the idea that everyone has something unique to contribute.

  • Zen's Chinese Heritage: A primary source describing Bai Zhang's contributions to work practice within Zen, emphasizing self-reliance and the spiritual value of manual labor.

  • Origins of Zen (comic book): Provides visual storytelling of Bai Zhang's contributions to Zen practice and underscores the historical adaptation of Zen monastic rules to encourage independence and minimize societal dependence during economic challenges.

The discourse further illustrates the cultural and historical significance through anecdotes, exemplifying how work practice and Zen principles promote a harmonious and sustainable way of life.

AI Suggested Title: Work as Enlightened Communal Practice

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I would like to begin by thanking Sogen Roshi for his patience and encouragement. So, this is the third day of our seven-day sesshin. So, hopefully, or anyway, maybe, A lot of you are disintegrating very nicely now. You've entered the disintegration chamber and we turned on the disintegration rays. Tassajara is the place where, you know, this can happen safely. It's a very rare and special opportunity. The poet and Zen teacher Ryufu Philip Whelan once said that sesshin is

[01:22]

like a slow motion, silent party. Wild party in ultra slow motion and silence. Maybe some of you have been to a party where the energy is just so high. so frantic everyone's having such a good time and then all of a sudden it just goes to the next level so she can be like that so um One thing about giving these talks during Sushin is that we are in silence, and so I don't get feedback right away, except if there's time for questions, there's that feedback.

[02:25]

But anyway, in the wake of my last talk, later, someone suggested that I maybe had a lot of different elements I was trying to pull together, a lot of different ideas. And I fear this talk may be the same way. But just to, if you wanted to take anything out of that last talk, what I was trying to say was we practice together and we awaken together. Practice and enlightenment come up together and it's something we all do together. Also, in the wake of the last talk I gave, I would like to correct an error. I made a mistake, and it's not my intention to mislead you. So in answer to a question of Rick's or a comment Rick said about, you know, why not have a perfect world?

[03:32]

Why not, you know, do this, I guess I would call it the practice of the lotus eaters. And I talked about the Vimalakirti Sutra, where Buddha reveals the world as being what it is, perfect. And then I said, Shariputra begged him to put it back. But actually, it doesn't happen like that. in the Vimalakirti Sutra. So I had doubts, and so I checked. So actually, what it says is, Shariputra said, when I look at this land, I see it full of knolls and hollows, thorny underbrush, sand and gravel, dirt, rocks, many mountains. Sounds like Tassajara. Filth and defilement. That's not Tassajara. And the Brahma King, there was a Brahma King there, okay? The Brahma King said, it is just that your mind has highs and lows and does not rest on Buddha wisdom.

[04:35]

therefore you see this land as impure yada yada yada buddha then pressed his toe against the earth and immediately the thousand million fold world was adorned with hundreds and thousands of rare jewels all the members of the great assembly sighed in wonder at what they had never seen before and all saw that they themselves were seated on jeweled lotuses and then um uh Buddha puts it back again. Buddha says, my Buddha land has always been pure like this. And then he puts it back again to what they're used to. But in fact, they don't ask him to do that. Why did I remember it that way? Well, it's pretty obvious. If I'd been there, I would have said, put it back. I probably would have, yeah. Because it's not so easy to see things the way they are. It's not so easy to see this pure Buddha land in its oh-so-devastating purity.

[05:46]

So Sojin said, I should give some words of encouragement. So I'm going to try to do that. And also, Benji, when the Benji and I were out turning compost, working hard, busting a sweat, I said, you know, before too long, I have to give a Dharma talk again. What should I talk about? And he said, work practice. He didn't even pause to take a breath. He just, talk about work practice. So, okay, that's a good Benji. Very helpful. So I'm going to try to offer some words of encouragement, and I'm going to talk about work practice, and I'm going to talk some more about some of our Zen ancestors, because they're so much fun to talk about. And I'm going to end on time.

[06:51]

So about a year and a half ago, my friend Charlie Picorni shared a story with me that I found very encouraging, which was about Dongshan, who wrote the Jomir Samari, Dongshan's teacher, Yunyan. And I really liked it a lot, and I said, well, maybe I could talk about that. And so I called Charlie, and I said, where is the story about Yun Yan, where he's with his Dharma brother, Da Wu. And Da Wu is so anxious for him that he bites his fingers so hard that it bleeds. And Charlie said, oh, that's in case 69 of the Book of Serenity. And also, I put it in my study guide. I was like, oh, I didn't get that far yet. So it's in the study guide, actually.

[07:58]

I like, you know, we were talking about the Buddha ancestors and we were talking about, you know, Mel spoke about the virtuosos, you know, these people, the great Zen masters were the virtuosos. And my last Dharma talk, I talked about Furong, Fuyo Dokai, a great abbot in the Soto tradition. who was definitely a virtuoso, you know, turn down the purple, okay, sir, no, no, take it back. But Yin-Yin is kind of cool. I like hearing about him because, you know, he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. There are several stories about that. And so I find that very encouraging because... I feel like myself, you know, can be quite slow in the uptake at times. Zen's Chinese Heritage.

[09:03]

This is a great book here. What a treasure store. Yunyang lived from 780 to 841, and he was a disciple of Yaoshan. Actually, he also studied with Baizhang, who was a disciple of Matsu. So this is before there were the five houses of Zen, obviously, because Soto's school starts with Yunyan's disciple, Dongshan. All these guys knew each other, actually. So he studied with Baizhang 20 years until Baizhang passed on. And then he went to study with Yao Shan. Yao Shan asked him, what did Bai Zhang say about the life and death before our eyes? Yun Yan said, he said that there is no life and death before our eyes.

[10:05]

Yao Shan said, how long were you at Bai Zhang's place? Yun Yan said, 20 years. Yao Shan said, so you spent 20 years with Bai Zhang, but you still haven't rid yourself of rustic ways. And there's this other story. which is in the commentary to Case 69 of the Book of Serenity, which I will share with you. I don't intend to talk about Case 69 at all. I just like the story. It concerns Yunyan and his younger Dharma brother, Daowu. There's a lot of stories about Yunyan and Daowu, who were both disciples of Yaoshan. But in this case, they were with Nanchuan. Nanchuan was the Dharma brother of Baizhang, also a disciple of Matsu. So this is before Yunyan went to study with Yaoshan. Three days later, as Daowu and Yunyan were in the back room mending,

[11:09]

Nan Chuan passed by and asked, the other day we said, where knowledge doesn't reek, just don't speak of it. If you speak of it, horns grow in the head. How do you put it into practice? Da Wu immediately got up and went into the zendo. Nan Chuan then left. Yun Yun asked Da Wu, little brother, why didn't you answer the teacher just then? Da Wu said, you are so sharp. Maybe he didn't have that inflection in it, but that's what it says. You are so sharp. Yunyan didn't get it and instead went on to ask Nanchuan, why didn't Daowu answer that issue just then? Nanchuan said, he's acting within different kinds. Yunyan said, what is acting within different kinds? Nanchuan said, haven't you been told? Where knowledge doesn't reach, just don't speak of it. If you speak of it, then horns grow on the hood. You must go act within different kinds. Yunyan still didn't understand. Daowu knew he didn't get it. So he said, this man's affinity is not here.

[12:12]

So he went back together with Yunyan to Yaoshan. Yunyan subsequently related the foregoing story to Yaoshan, who said, how did you understand this time there that you have come back? Yunyan had no reply. Yaoshan then laughed. Yunyan then asked, what is acting within different kinds? Yaoshan said, I'm tired today. Come another time. Yunyan said, I've come back especially for this. Yaoshan said, go away for now. So Yunyan then left. Daowu was outside the abbot's room, hearing Yunyan's failure. Unconsciously, he bit his finger so hard it bled. He went down and asked his older brother about what he had asked the teacher about. Yunyan said, the teacher didn't explain it to me. Daowu hung his head. It goes on. There's more, actually. I think maybe that's enough. I find that really encouraging.

[13:15]

actually. Yun-Yen was Dongshan's teacher. You know, he wasn't a very charismatic person, evidently. He was not flashy. But obviously he had something going on. It's Yun-Yen , It's his name we chant every morning, not Da Wu's. So, you know, I mean, who knows? It's like over a millennia ago, right? Yet we have these precious stories just to give us some feeling, you know? I really like the feeling of that story. Everyone's got something to offer.

[14:17]

And so it is here. Everybody has got their thing. The first chapter of the Avatamsaka Sutra is called The Wonderful Adornments of the Leaders of the World. Everybody has got... their wonderful adornment. Everybody's got their obstruction. Everybody's got that thing they do that someone else finds so annoying. It's, you know, in the raindrop mandala. Everybody has got their thing. I got a thing. You got a thing. Everybody's got a thing. When we get together, doing our thing, promise to help each other.

[15:21]

Promise to help your brother and sister. I got a thing. You got a thing. Like that. Everybody's got a thing. I want to tell my Dharma brother, Ben Gustin, that I waited till my third Dharma talk before I started singing funkadelic music. Promise to help each other. Right? That's the bodhisattva vow. We help each other. We practice together and waken together. We promise to help each other. Everyone's got their thing to offer, their offering. So, lately, I have been offering posture adjustment.

[16:24]

I think that's pretty funny, in a way. because posture is something I've been practicing with a lot, as those of you who have been here practicing with me for some time are well aware of. Rev has helped me with this a lot, and I still practice with it. I lived with liver disease for half my life, roughly, And, you know, I'm like always wanting to protect this upper right quadrant, this sort of habit energy that stuck with me. So I want to sit up and not lean to the right. Steven asked Mel, you know, what about offering more posture adjustment? And I'm always asking that too. I've actually spoken to practice leaders and said, please don't give up on me.

[17:34]

Don't let it be like, oh, you know, that guy, he leans to the right. He's been doing it a long time. We let him. I really don't want that to happen. I want to always practice with it. So I think, is it ironic that I should be offering posture adjustment? No, it's not. Actually, it's pretty appropriate. This is our helping each other. You know, Mel talked about a way to sit zazen is give yourself zazen instruction. And I, in guest season... Didn't really give much Zazen instruction until last guest season. Then last guest season, I started doing it plenty. Well, I don't know how many times, but, you know, a few times. And I found it really fulfilling and helpful.

[18:43]

It helped my practice a lot to offer Zazen instruction. Because... I started to say, that guy's got some good advice. You should listen to him. I started taking my own advice, somewhat. One thing I like to say when I give zazen instruction is something I picked up from Linda, my yoga teacher. When you sit upright, you can, like, this is something you can try right now if you like, consciously let your shoulder blades slide down your back. Let them sort of slide down. And immediately, you want to take a deep breath from your hara. It's kind of neat. You let your shoulder blades slide down your back and So I have fun doing that in Zazen instruction because I ask people to do that and, you know, it happens.

[19:50]

I say, oh, did you just take a deep breath from your hara, your diaphragm, one of the most powerful muscles in your body? And they're like, oh, yeah. It's nice. Uh... This happened in my last Dharma talk, too. I thought I had maybe two Dharma talks and I finished like that. So, I also would like to talk about work practice. And in talking about work practice, I can introduce another person whom I just mentioned briefly. one of our famous Zen ancestors, whose name goes hand in hand with work practice, and that's Bai Zhang, a disciple of Matsu. No?

[20:57]

Yes? Bai Zhang, Huaihai, lived from 720 to 814, foremost disciple of Matsu. very, very famous at being associated with work practice, helped to institute monastic regulations, sort of formulated them and evolved them in Matsu's wake. And it says here in Zen's Chinese Ancestors, in the everyday work of the monastery, Bajang always was foremost among the assembly at undertaking the tasks of the day, The monks in charge of the work were concerned about the master. They hid his tools and asked him to rest. Bai Zhang said, I'm unworthy. How can I allow others to work in my behalf? He looked everywhere for his tools but was unable to find them.

[21:59]

He even forgot to eat while looking for his tools. And thus the phrase, a day without working is a day without eating, has become known everywhere. That story is also in this wonderful book. It's a comic book called The Origins of Zen. It goes very nicely hand-in-hand with Zen's Chinese heritage. I think these two books complement each other very nicely. I checked this book out of the library, and I realized I saw the card. It's the third time I've checked it out. I checked it out in 2008. In 2002 and in 2005. They're really cute cartoons. It says about Bai Zhang. Yeah. I'll bring it back to the Abbott's cabinet. I used to read that. Did you? Yeah, yeah. No one recognized more clearly or lived out more convincingly the incomparable value of manual labor within the framework of Zen life than Bajang.

[23:08]

To him, even the abbot had to take part in manual labor. In India, the monks did not work and were dependent on the generosity of the laity for their sustenance. Bai Zhang's rules were meant to put an end to such dependence on society. And then it shows Bai Zhang looking kind of studly with his chest thrown out. Why should a monk who is sound in mind and body live like a parasite on others? Through these rules, Bai Zhang safeguarded practitioners against a life given to idleness and lacking in restraint, which spells the ruin of spiritual freedom. And then he tells the story, Bai Zhang lived to be 94 years old, and in his old age, still labored in the fields with his disciples. In order to spare Bai Zhang his dwindling strength, the disciples one day decided to hide his tool. And it shows Bai Zhang leaning over, hey, where is my gardening tool? And there's these young monks over there in the corner going, hee hee hee hee.

[24:12]

And then the monk says, Master, please have your meal. Bai Zhang says, I will not eat. During the period of three days in which Bai Zhang did not work, he also did not eat anything. And finally, the repentant young monk says, Master, I'm returning the tool to you. Bai Zhang says, thank you. Thus, Bai Zhang could resume working, and so he took his meals again. And the last panel says, a day without work, a day without eating. And then there's a little moral, and the monk says, to be able to do work and to have work to do is a good thing. Not to be able to do work and yet not be required to do work is also a good thing. That's true. This book also... I was going to mention the suppression of Buddhism that occurred in China during this Tang Dynasty, during this golden age of Zen, when all these people lived, all these famous teachers that we read about and know about from koans.

[25:22]

And actually, it's in this comic book in a big way. In the year 845, Buddhism in China was dealt a severe blow. The emperor at that time, Wu Zong, cited economic reasons for ordering a widespread suppression of Buddhism. He issued an imperial edict to justify his actions. Now here's the edict, and some monks are reading it with fear and loathing in their faces. Now, when one man does not farm, others suffer hunger, and when one woman does not weave, others suffer from the cold. At present, the monks and nuns of the empire are numberless, and they all depend on agriculture for their food and sericulture for their clothing. The monasteries and temples are beyond count, but they are all lofty and beautifully decorated, daring to rival palaces in grandeur. None other than this was the reason for the decline in material strength and the weakening of the morals of the six dynasties.

[26:24]

More than 4,600 monasteries and more than 40,000 temples and shrines throughout the empire were destroyed. more than 260,500 monks and nuns were returned to lay life, and 150,000 slaves were taken over by the government. This happened during Deng Xiaon's life. It must have been incredible. These numbers, I believe absolutely. The Chinese are great historians, great documentarians. If they say more than 4,600 monasteries, take it to the bank. During this suppression of the Buddhist sects, only Zen managed to remain more or less unscathed. Because Zen is not dependent on scriptures, Buddhist statues, and rituals, it could still flourish amid the destruction. And this panel shows a little monk sitting Zazen in the middle of a killing field where all these carrion birds are feeding on skeletons.

[27:28]

Zen monks also did their own manual work to support themselves and were not dependent on society. So I guess Wuzong didn't consider them to be a threat, these little communities of like-minded people, you know, out in the mountains. Tiny little monks, their tiny little communities. on their tiny little Zafus, just doing their thing, getting together and doing their thing. Such a state of affairs can be said to be due to Baichang's foresight in making the Zen communities self-reliant so that during a time of calamity they could still grow steadily. I have to mention guest season now.

[28:34]

I'm sorry. Oh, I mean, I don't have to, but I'm going to. So please forget about guest season. It is February 22nd. Guest season, long way off. But nonetheless, That's how Zen Center, among other things, supports itself. Of course, we take donations. We're not dummies. Of course, we solicit donations and take donations. But, you know, Suzuki Roshi once said, a guest season will be our takahatsu. Takahatsu is the practice of Zen monks going on begging rounds, begging for money and food. But actually, we don't beg the guests to pay when they come in guest season.

[29:34]

We have fixed rates. And it's a business arrangement. And I think that this is really more in the spirit of baijiang. And I think this is a good thing that we do. So, what is work? And what is play, for example? This is activity, right? There's inactivity, not moving. And then there's moving. There's our activity. There's enlightenment inactivity and enlightenment inactivity. So I think hopefully work and play can be enlightened activity. You know, children can be very serious about playing.

[30:40]

Very, very serious indeed. This is serious activity. This is karma yoga. So, you know, work, I think, I suggest, is joyous or not activity on each moment. When Sojin Roshi was shuso at Tassajara, the practice leader was Tatsugami Roshi. And Tatsugami Roshi talked a lot about miu-mitsu no kafu. He didn't speak English. But anyway, myu-mitsu-no-ka-fu can be translated as untiring effort on each moment to follow the family way, or intimate attention to detail in following the family way.

[31:48]

Apparently, Dengshan, Yunyan's disciple, Dongshan was noted for this attention to detail in this moment. I find this very, very, very encouraging. And try to take it up. It's my practice. When we work So the day before Sashin began, it was a personal day, of course, and I had a very nice personal day, thank you, and was just getting ready to wind it up and come to service ironing my orioke cloths and the Ino's orioke cloths, ironing, just ironing.

[33:03]

And then the director And the Tonto came in the back door of the dining room, said, oh, there you are. Yes, here I am. What's going on? Well, there's somebody stuck in the road, up the road. I'm like, but I'm ironing this. Okay. So we need your help. Okay. You know, I didn't really want to stop ironing, but I did. I just put the iron down, halfway through, just put the claws over there, halfway finished ironing them. Okay, what are we going to do? Well, you know, we got to get some people, able-bodied people to helped these people up the road who were stuck. They were out for a nice drive, a nice weekend drive. And these nearly impassable roads.

[34:06]

Okay, whatever. And Dion was already up there helping them. It was a guy, maybe, I don't know, 19, 20, and a little brother with maybe 12 or 13. And then we got Jeremy and Jeremy and I took a couple of rock bars and got in the lumber truck and drove up to where they were just below the Wildcat Creek, Church Creek trailhead. Big rock slide up there, big boulder in the road, several big boulders And this guy had actually driven past the rock slide and was trying to get back out again. And then he caught his front left fender on this boulder. He said, well, I got by it nicely coming downhill.

[35:09]

He crunched that fender and then he backed up to take another shot at it and backed his car right up onto another rock. So his gas tank was resting on top of this rock. His wheels were up in the air, because it was a front wheel drive car. And then he tried to get out and he spun his wheels, his front wheels, you know, so he was just totally dug in. And so we got up there with the lumber truck. And mostly, well, anyway, a lot, I was thinking, I have to be of service. You know, there's a Zendo event coming up, and I have to be there. And I think Jeremy and Dion will also attest, I vocalized this a couple of times.

[36:10]

I might have even mentioned Manjushri, you know. Oh, I have to take Manjushri out of this one. So I almost missed out on the fun because I was thinking about the next thing I had to do. Fortunately, with the help of my Dharma friends, I was able to let go of it. I just said, well, okay, whatever happens, happens. And then we put the winch on the lumber truck around this rock and Jeremy and Dion and The guy, the driver, lifted up the back end of the car and we just winched the rock out from underneath the car very nicely. And then Jeremy and Dion took rock bars and attacked these other boulders.

[37:15]

It was great. Talking about enlightened activity. It was really fun. It was a lot of fun. And actually, we cleared enough of a passage for a suburban to get by until such time as the county could come and clear it better. So, you know, that was a lot of fun. I'm glad I didn't miss it. It was a great thing to do on personal day. I really liked when Sojourner Roshi talked about Suzuki Roshi saying, what Zen practice has to offer is more Zen practice. Suzuki Roshi used to say a lot, just to continue this way of life forever.

[38:26]

This is what's being offered. Who could ask for more? So, I hope that everyone will continue your strong practice silently, slowly, Tear the roof off the sucker. There's time for a few questions. If questions there be. Daiki. So, devastatingly perfect. So, maybe, but... For all of the people that might hear that, that is a devastating profession for them, definitely.

[39:41]

It's a job. It's just a little bit selfish for people who have the next real comedy, or more abuse. It's something that needs to be a little bit selfish to say so to survive. To say what? To say so to survive. Selfish, if you say it from a selfish perspective. If you're saying, I got mine, Jack, then yeah, I agree. That's not so good. You know what I'm saying? Sure. I'm thinking, though, maybe even without having that kind of energy behind it, Yes.

[40:48]

Yes. Yes. I agree strongly. I felt it was okay to say it here. I agree with you 100%. This is, someone asked me in the wake of the last talk about talking about the raindrop mandala. You know, the entire human race, the human photo finish, the human stop. You know, what about Mao Zedong? What about Joe Stalin? What about suffering? Well, yeah, what about it? The appropriate thing is to care.

[41:54]

The appropriate response is to do something about it. It's also terrible to contemplate Take the mandala, turn it 90 degrees, divide it up into pie wedges. Heaven. Hell. Mel is famous for saying, hell is another place to practice. Harsh. Harsh. Yes? Could you say something about our practice of work and silence?

[43:01]

We have a guideline that says we work in silence. I'm not sure. And I heard Nell quoting Suzuki Roshi the other day. Some people were moving a rock out of the creek. None of them would break the silence. I think that's a great practice. I can endorse it vocally. I have historically not been very good at modeling this practice. So I confess that up front. So given that, I'm not sure how qualified I am to talk about it, tell you the truth. But I would like to support that.

[44:07]

I think that is a good thing. And I know that Connie, as a plant manager now, she is encouraged and encouraged know they're taking that up in the shop which uh you sure didn't do much uh when i was playing manager and when i heard that i was like good for connie you know good thing so yes i support it more I agree.

[45:13]

Yes. What's so good about it? I think, you know, it has value because it's not our normal way of approaching things. So it can give you an opportunity to focus a little bit more in this practice of niu-mitsu no kapu. I think it can just facilitate that. Again, I can't say I'm speaking from experience very much, but I do believe that. Steven.

[46:23]

Like you said, I got a thing. Yes. I mean, sometimes, like, what I have to offer is to lay there in the trance that I've done, and what sometimes it seems like my younger brother or sister has to offer is to look at me laying there. Now, that's it. So, from the keto standpoint, like, through the annihilation, Well, you never know. You're laying in a trench. Might be a great teaching to somebody.

[47:29]

No worries. Yes, Caroline. How every activity Equal opportunity to... Yes. Yes. Right. Right. This is on each moment. This opportunity for this new Mitsunokaku. Whatever we're doing.

[48:41]

Well, certainly... Here in this place. Yes, Janet. Yes.

[49:54]

Yes. She said, how can we help each other remember not to approach work from this sort of Western perspective of like, got to go to work now and put on the job face and be productive, get things done. You know, which I'd like to, you know, I just want to say I don't value you according to how much you get done. All right. I value you as Buddha and everyone else. And I think, by the way, this has got to be the last question, that it's a really important point. and that our work is rather subversive in this way. Hopefully, you know, we don't approach work from this point of view. It's a rather limited materialistic point of view.

[51:01]

As Carolyn said, everything is offering you this opportunity, you know, Whether you have a limitation, what are you going to do? Can't do this job, not do this job. Like I said in the comic book, not to be able to do work and not to be required to do work, also a good thing. I think this is our perspective. Yeah, and we should remind each other of that. Things get done. Don't worry about it. He doesn't worry about it. Things get done. Oh, you know, I have this unfortunate tattoo on my left arm. Probably can't see it from there. Alfred E. Newman from Mad Magazine.

[52:05]

He's shrugging like this, and he says, what, me worry? And maybe nine years ago, maybe to the day, I was in the Dogathon hut at Berkley Zen Center with Mel, and I showed him this tattoo. And he looked at it and paused for a second. He said, like, really seriously, you know, I've often thought that this is the practice of Alfred E. Newland. Maybe I'll leave you on that note.

[52:47]

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