I mean, some people just die very unhappily, and it's not so much from the things they've done to them, but, you know, they just, you know, they can't get to a point where they can resolve things, but lots of times, that kind of thing is just a way of asking for help, and that's the right combination of significant others. Right. You said love. Of significant others. Yeah, you said love, and that's kind of it, you know, sometimes love is kicking someone's butt. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean. Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate that attitude. I mean, I just got curious with a friend of mine who has cancer of the colon, cancer of the womb, and it's just merrily invading her whole situation. Just a fantastic woman, feeling so sorry for herself, herself, living at Ari Bahara, the Krishnamurti Foundation, where everybody's so nice. Nobody's touched her body once. There she is, going, well, I guess there's nothing to do. Wah!

[01:18]

I mean, I have been rude. Really, just rude. You know, we think being spiritual means to be nice, but sometimes you just get your, you know, Vajra Mama going. You know, you just get your sword out. I mean, if it's done with, you know, wit and love, it can be far out. But, you know, one of the things I want to say to you is that the people who were referred into our program agreed, no matter how depressed they were, to take LSD. Okay? And some of these people were bored, apathetic, and horribly depressed. And the great advantage, of course, is that the Vajra Mama there is the substance. It's so crazy, the situation. You know, so much gets exploded into conscious awareness that the apathy kind of disappears rather rapidly. But the first step, of course, is the agreement of the individual to do that. I, you know, besides becoming like a Garuda, if you will, you know, crazy, with somebody like that, or through, you know, love, connection, inspiration, I don't know of any strategy

[02:24]

to offer you. As a matter of fact, to be perfectly frank with you, I think all strategies are absurd, ultimately. That there's no cookbook for working with dying people. That ultimately, you know, I can tell you story after story of things that have been done, pain, depression, people who are medically difficult to manage, and all sorts of, you know, so-called fusion therapy of, you know, lying in bed with somebody for ten hours, holding them, breathing with them. I mean, you know, great. Beautiful music, meditation, you know, the Heart Sutra, wonderful. But it's all phony. It's all empty if your situation isn't present. I mean, it's just another technique. Ridiculous. Hollow. Yeah? No, I'm not saying that.

[03:39]

At all. What I'm saying is this, that where you start is with yourself. Okay? So you're not working out of a technique, or a cookbook, or what you're told to do. When your situation is correct, when your condition is correct, then you can open up your, you know, you know what to do. There's correct action. Now, it's extremely handy to know, sometimes you're so enlightened, which does not happen to be my case, nor the case of most people I know, but some people are so enlightened as to know exactly what to do, but when you have a certain correctness about your situation and your condition, it can be extremely helpful to know that telling people in certain conditions who are suffering from pain to go into their pain can help alleviate their pain by increasing it to the point where it moves from agony into ecstasy and then into emptiness, where you move from bliss into nothing.

[04:42]

Okay. Or, it's extremely handy to use music when time can be very draggy. Very, oh, I'm telling you. Oh, talk about a problem. You're dying. Time. Now, for somebody who wants to move their consciousness away from, you know, charting every little second that moves, music can be fantastic. I think a person can give their awareness over to music, can be incredibly inspiring. It's wonderful. Or the Heart Sutra. There are moments when the saying of the Heart Sutra, the correct situation for the recitation of the Heart Sutra is so perfect. It's not like you're saying the Heart Sutra just to say the Heart Sutra. That's not perfect, to condition the person into that situation. I mean, it's said with, I mean, it's said with a kind of awareness of that field where

[05:44]

there's transmission, not conditioning, but transmission. So it's good to know how to do a lot of things. Laying on, I mean, I'm just awful. Boy, I have this sort of attitude of just trying anything, because the thing, you know, laying on of hands, divine light, I mean, I'll do anything. You know, if I am guided somewhere by the situation in my heart to do it, it's okay. And generally it works really well, because you're not trying to figure it out. But it's great to have a wide range of possibilities available to you, which is why you go to school and get an education. And then, you know, this technique comes through, that technique, but it's not hollow. You see what I mean? Yeah. How do you view the situation of the average physician, sort of, his approach to death, from where the patient is very much shunned by the whole...

[06:48]

Educational system. ...by the education, and just by the whole hospital system? Mm-hmm. Is there any... I'll tell you. I have had nothing but fantastic experiences working with doctors. And let me tell you, I have worked in some horribly, certainly the University of Miami School of Medicine, Jackson Memorial Hospital. Forget it. It's backwoods. You know, Miami Beach Doctor Consciousness. All they want to do is become a doctor so they can have a lucrative practice. In the meantime, you know, people are going crazy, they're suffering. And the thing that I have seen, almost without fail, is that if you're not walking in with some kind of preconception about how terrible doctors are and nurses are and health care professionals, and you've got the answer, that we're all in this thing together and we're trying to find a way, and that's their way, and you have a way, that other person has a way. Frequently, you know, in anthropology they have a thing called cultural broker.

[07:50]

Anthropology is such a great profession. They have all these cute terms. Now, cultural broker is a person who moves on the interface, Eric Wolf, to give you the reference, the interface of systems, of cultures, or of a medical system, and the so-called outside world, and finds the connecting points between these systems to make things work. You know, to get a deal going, if you will. It's a terrible term, but, you know, Eric Wolf thought of it. And if you just want to play in that sort of metaphor, okay, what you want to do is get a good deal going, to get something correct happening. Not to look at the medical profession as a bunch of bandits and demons and insensitive people, but to actually, when you look, there's a higher rate of suicide, there are more crazy, miserable doctors than there are, you know, crazy, miserable and suicide. I mean, you know, it's a terrible profession to be in. Hell, alcoholism, drug abuse, I mean, these people have problems. It's very hard to work in medicine. So when you sort of look at it from their perspective, you come, oh, they're disadvantaged frequently

[08:54]

because they've been in the sciences probably since high school. They've marched right toward their medical degree, right through an educational system which has not allowed B values, being values, meta values to come through. They've had no experience in spirituality, or very rare in any kind of spiritual discipline. And they've been conditioned in a rather dehumanized way, but that doesn't mean they're not human. And it's true. Oh, well, let me, great, good. Well, let me encourage you to do it. No, you're in the perfect position to do it. Great. Great. I have a question. Once you're in this position, it seems like what you can actually do in that situation is very much restricted by... No, it's not. But not entirely. Oh.

[10:14]

Absolutely. Right. Yeah. I think not only you can, but you're enormously advantaged because if you have the skill to be a scientist, in addition to have compassion, then you come to a very simple understanding that being a so-called scientist or in the helping, the healing profession, a medical doctor, doesn't mean that you have to be heartless or neurotic. And I'd like to cite Paul Brenner as an example. I mean, there's hundreds of people that can be cited. The thing is that most people don't have the opportunity to explore life sufficiently before they enter into medical training so that when they hit it, they're not prepared at all for what's going to happen to them when they have contact with so-called patients.

[11:14]

And the result is, as I saw it anyway, in working in a medical school, is a very defensive posture, immediately becoming a doctor, you have all the behaviors, and that's just an incredible defense. And that you don't have to dance that way, nor do you have to be weird. It's a doctor. You can be a fantastic doctor and be right, like many family doctors who are coming back happily, have that, you know, that thing going. And what I see, you know, when I was at the medical school in Miami, they introduced humanities and social sciences into the medical curriculum intentionally, so as technological as medicine is getting, the complement is also very powerful in your training process. But you're so lucky to have this experience, which I presume you're in because you wouldn't be sitting here now, as the foundation for your further education. To become a skilled technician is great. It's why I have respect for medicine. I just want to be sure I have a doctor who's loving,

[12:16]

who's not going to try to do something to me that's not necessary, and who's going to inform me about my situation so I can participate in my therapy. It's great. I've had some, you know, wonderful experiences. So, good, do it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's so frustrating. I mean, your question is like, it is the worst. It's the worst. It's like trying, it's Sisyphus. You know, you drag the stone up the hill and it just rolls down. And you're going nowhere. But I'll tell you, we don't have,

[13:17]

I live in a place where there's no electricity, so there's no television. So every once in a while, I come out into the world and buy a Time magazine to see how they look at the world. So I bought this Time magazine and I read the most astonishing article driving up here about work with coma patients. I'm sure somebody else read Time magazine, I hope. I said, great, because I've worked with people in coma and they've come out of coma and they're there and talk about apathy. That's sort of the ultimate apathy. I mean, that's not only psychological apathy, although they might be struggling to break through, that's total physical apathy. And the thing that is sort of hard is that we literally become discouraged. We lose our courage because we have a view of somebody not being home or being so depressed that you can't move them. And you think that for your gratification, you need to see progress. You need a reward. I don't want to talk about service now.

[14:19]

I've just recently decided that service is bad. Because you, generally people who are in the serving professions, do it for a reward. They want the gratification of seeing the response of the individual in relation to what they're doing or how they're being. So if you're, you know, beyond the place of wanting a reward, then so what? You do the best that you can and don't abandon the person because they've abandoned themselves. And something can happen at the time of death which is truly magical. They said that you don't have the so-called hallucinogen to explode the process, but the process will probably explode at the time of their death. It's not unlikely that that could happen. And you can be there for something miraculous and provide the context for that transition. But we mostly give up in situations like that.

[15:21]

Okay. Any more questions? Yes. Okay. All right. All right. Sometimes, you know, I was staying at a friend's house last night who had a terrible life experience and we talked about it quite a bit. She flipped out. She's a very confident woman. She said, I wish somebody had told me about this before it happened to me. And I said, well, sometimes I don't like to tell people about what is probably going to happen because it'll help it happen and maybe it doesn't have to happen. So there's this kind of fine line. Are you programming somebody or are you, you know, the better part of wisdom helping them develop an understanding

[16:24]

of what is happening at the time it's happening by giving them a position of witness? A wonderful analogous story is of a Yakut shaman who's initiated and the story is they cut off the head of the neophyte shaman and they place it in the uppermost plank of the yurta from where it watches the chopping up of its own body. Okay, there's the witness. Now the person's not sitting there with a bag over their head. He goes, oh, is this how they're dismembering me? They've got the map through the mythos, through the mythological transmission and they're also watching. The witness is engaged. Then there's a point where the witness disappears but most of us, as I said, aren't enlightened so it's handy to have your witness around, let me tell you. So by telling somebody, now statistically speaking or generally or it is not infrequent or I've seen this on a number of occasions that some, you know, in the LSD sessions or when you're dying or in this situation or that situation it comes up

[17:26]

that you have what we call a crisis of trust and it's an existential crisis where you feel as if the whole world is against you or you're being poisoned or you're in danger and you become very frightened. It's kind of like a paranoid experience. It's like that. It's sort of like that. And in the LSD work we'd say it's not and it wasn't it was not uncommon that this experience would arise and so I'd say to the person it's not uncommon that that happens and if that should happen one of the ways that we can resolve it in terms of our relationship is for you to say I'm not trusting you and what's going on here and then I'll say to you do you remember we spoke about this? This is not uncommon and we call this the crisis of trust. Will you look within yourself for this source of distrust that's arising and I'll help you in any way I can. Do you remember we spoke about this before? Well, let me tell you

[18:27]

it's very helpful in those situations. It's why mythology exists. If you're in the dark night of the soul and you know, St. John hasn't written about it and you think you're the only one you might hurt yourself. Really. But if you realize wait a minute this is the part this happens this feeling of in the case of the dark night of the soul you have a map oh there's where I am okay I can then let myself go more deeply into the experience thus knowing as Dean said you know bring the cameras back back into his experience thus knowing when you're in hell thus knowing you're dying symbolically in the LSD work or in psychosis or dying thus knowing that there's a map there's a sense of transformation of movement of journey somehow then you you just can go much, much deeper into it plus knowing that

[19:29]

you know everybody's going to do it millions of people have done it you have a sense that you know you have lots of company absolutely yeah in the Upanishads they talk about two birds in one tree one eats the fruit one watches the eater there's the experiencer and the witness great birds are these friends of these two birds now there's a point you know when you've become one you've attained enlightenment where there's no subject there's no object there's no witness there's no experiencer great you get A on your report card if you're there but mostly you know we're not there so developing or allowing the witness to arise by virtue of the cartography being disclosed is very, very helpful

[20:31]

it's I mean every Tibetan knows about the Tibetan Book of the Dead it's very handy to have that map the Lama also is saying it in your ear what you are probably experiencing is and he's telling you you're not telling him he's observing physiological signs clamminess and changes of breath and smells and so on he's coding your experience but he knows he's giving you you know the steps in the journey and helping you deepen your experience the primary clear light don't turn away face it go into it become one with it it's really helpful to do this with a teacher a sitter a facilitator a foundation a connection a mirror I mean you know a teacher is not somebody who's guiding you per se it's basically an individual who's so sensitive and so wise and their mind is so still that they're reflecting

[21:33]

what is back to you the meta-level what we're saying is the person is in the they're they're in a so-called paranoid experience the meta-level is that you come out of the experience to say essentially by saying I don't trust you is it's a paradox right I trust you enough to say I do not trust you all of a sudden you're in your experience of distrust you're at another level of trust okay it's a beautiful thing it's really and it it never doesn't work if you do it authentically yes very similar

[22:47]

I mean let's let's just say Stan once compared Stan Grof once compared LSD to like a radar scanner and you know you have this they call it unspecific amplifier and if you've had I mean I've had a lot of LSD not anymore I I doubt if I'll ever take it again and actually it's been a number of several years since I've taken it it's like enough of that one it gave me up thank God for small favorites well but in any case it's very curious because it sort of scans the unconscious and it picks up all that sort of emotionally karmically charged material and explodes it into conscious awareness it's called unspecific amplifier now in the LSD sessions at Maryland there are two major kinds of psychedelic psychotherapy one is called psycholytic therapy this is small dosages from 50 to 100 to 150 micrograms which are given in serial sessions which slowly let the stuff be pulled up to the surface

[23:47]

or the defenses break down it comes up the other is called psychedelic psychotherapy and that is a single overwhelming dose so to speak and when you're working with dying people generally you only have time for one you have a lot of work to do I mean if your objective is for that individual to die clearly with their family business cleaned up their psychodynamic situation clear their perinatal situation clear their karmic situation their whole transpersonal realm clear so they're not you know going out in some dream space or another it's a lot of work it's not very popular form of therapy it wasn't even at the time because the session day starts at 8 o'clock in the morning and finishes up generally at midnight it's a long day and it's a long carry one frequently a lot of work plus there's the preparation and then there's the whole follow up which you do now oh yeah in terms of ritual in other cultures rites of

[24:48]

passage about which I spoke earlier is the closest analog to when I was at Maryland I had done all this when I got out of computer anthropology I went into the field and I studied rites of passage in Africa and I was there for a year going huh oh my dear isn't this interesting and then I was at Miami and I was looking at indigenous healing systems but the human mind is that when activated in a certain way one of the features that the qualities

[25:48]

that comes up is a sense of I mean a mystical field can awaken within the individual's experience and again in the human encounter with death which is not a spiritual book at all but we have a number of accounts of people who had profound mystical experiences which I can talk about ad nauseum or ad infinitum really amazing understandings and illuminations which changed their values not only their priority of values but the values they were prioritizing I mean they were what Maslow called B values being values it was fantastic another one of those crazy things that you know comes through the cosmos I gave a lecture at Duke University on death and dying in the department of psychiatry and I went back to the motel and I turned on the television to escape and Billy Graham was on and there was one line I went

[26:49]

thank God I didn't he said I never saw hearse with a U-Haul behind it I turned off the television I went thank you Jesus you know I thought that's great because talk about priority of values how many dying people that we worked with prior to their values getting rearranged worrying about their bank account and their taxes it's crazy instead of getting their money matter straight and clear they're creating chaos because what you want to do is die clean part of dying clean is finishing up your old business you know get your life in order for God's sake and part of the work we did I mean I just got very practical dying is very practical is a very humorous side too I mean I had some of the greatest gut laughs I ever had I had with people who were dying at that point you know why not you just get down with people after a while I mean believe me it can be kind of awful sometimes

[27:49]

but it can be totally hilarious you know I'm not sure I'm not curious about it because it does have a side to it and I I mean yeah for me the problem with LSD every psychedelic drug any psychedelic drug is it's a bit like a Mac truck and I personally I decided to give up psychedelics rather recently I spent 10 years I missed the whole psychedelic era you know I was in the computer laboratory at Columbia University and then in Paris at the Musée d'Homme and then in Africa you know being ambitious

[28:50]

and then then this thing happened in my life which was facilitated by substances then I got attached to the visions which was you know great and I got crazy with it and then all of a sudden I said wait a minute hold on here you know this is not a good way to stay in the body I realized and not only that I had a lot of suffering abysmal amounts so one of the things I began to understand is there's a sort of natural dynamic to the unconscious which is just fantastic it lets the deep stuff leak through in the dream field at a nice handy rate however I hate to tell you this but you already know it most people don't even bother to remember or can't remember their dreams second of all even if they can remember they don't give them any credence value pay attention to them or work with them and third of all there seems to be a periodic exorcising of deeper energies it's almost cleansing in nature for some

[29:52]

individuals and this is basically what these rites of passage function to do to allow for this deeper unfolding to occur now meditation practice as I understand it but only superficially allows this to happen you know one is first not clear so to speak one you know one watches the mind one isn't diverting the mind into you know zen as I understand it into a mantra getting attached to the form so you're not in this sense of mindfulness and in so watching a level of the unconscious can unfold after the chitch calms down which is very much in the realm of illusion dreamlike fantasy content all right re-association all that kind of stuff it can be extremely instructive to give to pay attention to that material to give it some value in the

[30:52]

sense that yeah it's coming up uh-huh I'm noticing kind of thing because by not noticing at least in my experience not paying attention to that is that it doesn't necessarily die of attrition you know it just kind of comes back you know you notice it but then you don't so that's and the LSD work taught me that the people more than me because I mostly didn't want to look at all the painful stuff but had it shoved in my face the reason why I don't like LSD and psychedelic drugs is that someone once called it a rape of the unconscious there is a violating quality to the experience when you're hitting painful levels and I don't want to talk about you know all the beautiful transcendental things I'm just talking about the hard stuff okay that can be extremely problematic and as I once said to Dr. Groff

[31:52]

quite frankly sir the treatment is more traumatic than the original trauma quite frankly sir the treatment is more traumatic than the original trauma that you're working on and it's like terrible and I also feel that almost every human being I've ever encountered is a rather tender thing you know when you're in a nice relationship with them I don't know how to say it but you know and that you don't need to sort of hatchet your way through your defenses in fact I think your defenses can be your best friends and becoming an ally with your defenses you're able to control them to a certain extent you know what's with the door I mean you've got the door barred up ten times because you've opened it too fast and all this stuff has flooded out but you're able to open it up in a way that's correct for the rate that you're able to integrate experiences and I think in a way that's why meditation is such a powerful

[32:53]

process because that's one of the things you learn to work with maybe that's not right yes I live in Ojai what's all this done for my life I don't know I live in Ojai and on 40 acres of land that's a non-profit educational wasn't until yesterday it's a service foundation wonderful I'm also the president of it but actually that's just ridiculous too and it's my life is I'm having a great time I mean you know my life is healthy as far as I can tell my body is healthy and I feel a lot of joy and I feel useful

[33:53]

and I practice every day I'm up at 430 and I sit just like you know probably everybody here but not as neat as you all do and the community in which I live practices every day the same way I do simple it's in Krishnamurti land and actually the land in which we are was the land that was originally given to Krishnamurti and he didn't like it because it was too hard to get to praise the Lord where he is everybody is and where we are it's easy to get to and we're there Annie Besant his spiritual mother bought it in 27 and had a vision about a particular kind of thing happening there and we're the first tiny humble picking up of the foot we're not even a step yet and it's very humble it's very much in nature and teachers come there who are academic and so called spiritual teachers it's great we have not a permanent structure there we have no electricity I never dress like this there you know everybody

[34:54]

sometimes I come down the hill because I have to go to L.A. to talk and everybody applauds and laughs and makes fun of me it's kind of coyote land there are lots of coyotes and deer and cougar and hawks and skunks and raccoons and it's really nice it's not very fancy I wish some of you all would come down you know how it is you probably don't know how big is my car laughs oh great no I'd love we worked a lot with a real crazy zen master called Sansani who helped clean up my act considerably because he makes me laugh so heartily he's just so crazy that you know life gets more delightful something loosened up where I could actually forgive myself for having done so much damage

[35:54]

truly and that's been a great release not to be guilty and angry to the degree to which I was and living in nature is very powerful ultimately I suppose the most powerful teacher I have is nature because it doesn't talk back and actually I feel like a fool talking to it so it's a

[37:15]

kind of simplicity in what happens there and sometimes it's complicated too and it's also a nice thing about being a woman one of the reasons I this is a sexist invitation I was asked here because 50% because I was a woman because I heard that mostly men come here and speak and actually so Rev told me and he's right mostly men get asked to go and talk because they really are profound and since I'm getting less profound I'm sure he regrets his decision but it's true I must say that even as all these things are happening in the world that are so dreadful and I feel a lot of you know my heart really hurts a lot but even as much as I feel terrible for what happens in the world there's just something else that's coming through too you know this doom and gloom and holocaust consciousness the denial of life that seems to pervade

[38:15]

a lot of people in despair today which immobilizes them completely I mean I just can't buy the program I mean it's a terrible there is so much dukkha on this planet it's just incredible but you know I've had enough dukkha already so I you know I just feel like doing whatever my job is you know whatever happens to be and part of it is in the foundation it's very feminine there's no game plan there's no you know this is the vision that we're marching toward like soldiers it's a much more kind of existential quality you know things change and turn around a lot come up and go down you know as it comes you go with it program? well we have you don't want to hear this anyway you know native american medicine people and zen masters and tulkus and wonderful teachers who come who basically are characterized by the quality of coyote you know if they if they are

[39:17]

wonderful teachers who have a sense of laughter about them since I generally invite the people to the program since I'm trying to laugh more because I'm finding it very healing those are the kind of people who come so some really profound people come and it's wonderful you know it's very sometimes I mean you know this thing with sansanim this crazy zen master you know he walked we are our sanctuary my friend it's not a beautiful hall with wooden floors it's a teepee in a canyon so little sansanim in his grey clown outfit you know he has little white rubber shoes and he's all shiny you know and he comes shuffling down the path and he looks he's never seen a teepee before and he goes oh he steps into the teepee and there we are all in our zafus you know sitting on our little black pills trying to look like good students of zen and he goes oh wonderful natural style

[40:17]

zen and then he points up at the apex of the teepee and he goes one point you know not so bad or we did we did a kido this is terrible we should be talking about dying it's terrible but I'll tell you one more story we did a kido which is a chanting which means energy way and you sing this mantra in korean you know I have such a prejudice against koreans really you know you can tell when I'm born I love koreans anyway it's just fantastic so anyway kido we're singing kwan sam bo sol which is the name of the bodhisattva you know in korean I just love chanting in korean but you know it's great you just chant in korean so there we are kwan sam bo sol from four thirty in the morning after you do your 108 full prostrations and kwan sam bo sol and you're beating your moktak and then you're walking around until ten o'clock at night right because I think

[41:19]

it's totally hilarious at times what this is ridiculous you're walking this tiny teepee round and round beating these instruments chanting the name of the bodhisattva it's like not a very compassionate thing to do ultimately to yourself or others so there you go anyway you do this practice in order to increase what he calls special energy alright now special energy actually is universal energy and um what I learned in shamanism and I this is all hocus pocus but I found out it exists in certain forms of buddhism and zen is one of them this universal energy is great stuff it doesn't belong to you but it's everywhere and once you you know sort of opened yourself up to it uh actually it's very healthy you just you just I mean it's terrible to say but one of the things that I feel great you know physically and my energy I you know life is a lot nicer and part of it is this practice of zen that I do I'm terrible at zen but anyway and special energy so

[42:19]

I'm just thinking this is absurd but anyway so we're it's a full moon night and we're kwan-tsang bo-sal-ing you know down this ridge to go to the dining dome because we can't do this real special energy practice in the teepee because it's too small so we get to the dining dome it's a huge dome and there's hay all on the floor and what happens is all the students are chanting and by this time you know it's like the third day and you've been doing it for hours and hours every day and you're beginning you've given up you're simply the chant at this point I mean you're being chanted by the bodhisattvas of compassion at this point you're just sitting there like an idiot hitting your motak and chanting and it's fantastic so you know one student after another goes up and stands in front of her him it like this you know with your gassho okay great not moving and everyone is chanting beating it's crazy it's like a carnival Korean instruments behind you and then all of a sudden you're not only being sung

[43:21]

but you're being danced and it's amazing you know you're dancing this sort of zen dance now I saw one old woman with a bilateral mastectomy in her late 60s who used to practice here but now does it with the sansanim jumped 5 feet off a floor doing this practice and her mind opened up and she she doesn't have cancer anymore she got special energy and special energy just means that you know just it's it's a funny thing I can't describe it but it's very powerful and then when you know you sort of come down it's just things it's sort of simple you become kind of simple minded you know you're just an idiot no really you're just you know you look around and the world is alive and you're alive and you're all part of this thing and it's very you're very peaceful you know and it's so in this dining dome somebody slipped on the hay and the next thing I saw

[44:21]

because I'm sitting beside sansanim he's covered in hay you know he's like a sort of bundle of hay and laughing and it was absurd but the sense of of child but child not of childishness when all the noise stops and you you hear in a way you've never heard before your body feels very peaceful you look around and there's a sense of like empty bliss and it even you know sort of stays around as a tone in your life it's not bad interesting so it's coyote there and I imagine that someday somebody from the moral majority will come and protest and just find us you know the trickster element the element of the fool the wise fool who comes back you know free of earthly attachments to dance in the world which is probably

[45:21]

what zen in part is very much about free from all that to do the work of reflection to take a blindfold hopefully transform them into wise fools it's a little bit of what we do but much humbler I was wondering who went there and how long did they stay there some people have been there we started two years ago and they're still there and some people come through and it's not correct for them to be there it's not a place for everybody it's like this is not for everybody for sure so that easiness of this is not necessarily for everybody is very much part of there trying to get people to go there though I would like to see more zen quality there because I have such a respect for that way of being in life it's helped me so much it's been bitter but good medicine oh, four in the morning

[46:24]

great laughter well it's a wonderful being of you all I really enjoy the questions and I'm leaving early in the morning and so ... ... ...

[46:38]

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