Good morning, everyone. I'm sorry my altar is not accessible. I've tried to make this this screen, this kind of funky screen, as a as a neutral background. So I'd have to get up and sort of crawl around it. Sojin Roshi was scheduled to be the speaker this morning. And I got a call late in the evening, yesterday, asking me to give the talk, because he wasn't feeling well and hadn't been feeling well all day yesterday. So I will give that talk and tell you a bit about what will be going on, what has been going on here at Berkley Zen Center, and leaving good time for questions and answers. But I thought I would start with a piece of the

[01:03]

talk that Sojin Roshi gave in August of 1971, in late August of 1971. So what is that, 49 years ago. And at that point, you know, he was four months or so, or a little less, three, three, four months from, from his passing. And so he was certainly experiencing his illness. But he was also full of life. As you can read in the transcript, I've, I've edited out, edited out the places where it says, laughs or laughing, but that there was a lot of that interjected in the, in the talk. So, um, this is one of the lectures on the Sandokai, I believe,

[02:10]

but I've just exerted it. Someone, someone falls to earth, someone falls on the earth, maybe by stumbling over a stone. Somebody, someone who falls on the earth, maybe by stumbling on a stone will stand up by the same earth. Because of the earth, you stumble and fall. Earth is the problem. You think because of the problem, you may get hurt. And because of the earth, you can support yourself again and can stand up. So you complain because you think it is the earth and the stone's fault that you've fallen. Without the earth, you will not fall. And without the earth, you cannot stand up.

[03:14]

Falling and standing up are a gift given to you by the earth. So a problem itself is your mother. Because of mother earth, you can continue your practice. The problems are actually your zendo. Or maybe the problems are your zoom. Problems are actually your zendo. And that is very true. So what is delusion? And what is enlightenment? When you are deluded about the earth's true nature, that is delusion. When you're enlightened about the earth, that is enlightenment.

[04:17]

When you stand up by the earth, that is enlightenment. When you fall and you blame the earth, that is delusion. So we have a chance to attain a great enlightenment when we have a problem. Our way is not to get rid of all the stones on earth, which could be stumbling stones for you. It is good to have many stones on the earth, which could be stumbling stones. When you stand up, if you have a big stone there, it may be easier. To stand up. It's very good for your practice to have big stones everywhere.

[05:19]

No problem. We have plenty of those. Here, for instance, is a stone. I meant to bring a stone, but of course I forgot. If you understand it, that is, you know, enlightenment. If you don't understand it, then you could have a painful fall. So if there are not many stones to help your practice, we may have to bring many stones from Tassajara to the Zendo. Fortunately, we actually don't have to worry about that because we all have stones in our path. And actually, what we need to do is to pay attention. You know, look where you're stepping to be mindful.

[06:25]

So this mind of enlightenment, in Dogen Zenji's fascicle, Gakudo Yujinshu, he talks about the mind of enlightenment, which is also conventionally in Sanskrit known as bodhichitta. And Dogen says, the mind of enlightenment is the mind that sees into the nature of impermanence. So we are in a time of impermanence, a time of many stones. And it's really, it's just one difficulties, one stone to stumble on after another. And, you know, right now, I don't have to enumerate them for you because we're all,

[07:33]

we're all living them. And it's a good thing that we're paying attention because these were, many of them were not stones that we saw coming, you know. So if we're looking, you know, towards the horizon or towards the goal, then probably we're going to stumble. But really our practice, the practice of Zazen is to instruct us in how to pay attention step by step, stone by stone, and breath by breath. So we also, we have many problems, many stones, which are also many opportunities. But these are not all opportunities that we, certainly not opportunities that we ask for or

[08:42]

wanted, or greet with joy, perhaps. And I think that one of the situations which we haven't spoken to is really, it's the circumstance of this talk. You know, it's the circumstance of our teacher's illness, which has been unfolding for now 13 months, from last September, when we were at Dasahara, and he was working on Dharma transmissions and had an episode that was diagnosed as beginnings of a bile duct cancer.

[09:43]

And so, that was fully diagnosed, and they began, they had an intervention, they had began with treatment, and now here we are, 13 months later, and it's not entirely clear that the discomfort that Sojourner Roshi is experiencing is an artifact of the treatment or an artifact of the illness, but the fact is that the nature of impermanence is unfolding. And I think all of us are, we don't welcome that as a gift.

[10:47]

It's actually, our practice is to figure out how to include it, how to fold it into our zazen and our life so that it can serve us and serve all sentient beings. And I know that this is what, first of all, this is what Sojourner Roshi is trying to do for himself, and it is what he wants for us. And I know that he wants it wholeheartedly. There was not, there's nothing that would be more important to him than to sense that we are really embodying that lesson.

[11:51]

Now, it's also true that, you know, I think quite a few of you were at the public dokusan on Thursday. I wasn't there, but I gather that he was wonderful and alive and vibrant, and this is what the dharma serves for him. It really, in those moments, he gathers everything that is best, that we truly love about him. But that's not necessarily an energy that he can sustain through all of the days. So, we are entering this period, and it is, it's hard. You know, if it's a gift, it's a gift nobody asked for, and it's a gift that we can't give away.

[13:04]

So, a difficult gift, and that difficult gift may be very valuable. So, many stones, and there are many stones ahead. We have to watch very carefully. So, some of you, probably, maybe a lot of you, actually, received a notification this morning in the email that, on the 24th of October, which is two weeks from today, there will be a ceremony in which Sogen Roshi will step down as the abbot of Berkeley Sun Center,

[14:09]

and he will also, he has expressed his willingness to accept a new position, which will be given to him at the same time as he steps down, the position of founding Dharma teacher. And we hope that you can attend that. I'm going to put all of the, I'm going to give you a bunch of dates, and I'm going to put all of them in the chat after I finish speaking. This is a remarkable moment, a difficult moment, a moment to, for celebration and for grief simultaneously. How do we hold those two things at once? This is at the heart of our practice. At the heart of our practice is to be able to hold

[15:18]

in our hearts and minds two things that are seemingly contradictory at one time, to hold ambiguity, to hold ambivalence, to hold yes and no, to hold like and dislike, at the same time as part of one reality. And not, and somehow not to let one side interfere with the other. Not to let the grief interfere with our gratitude and celebration. And in our gratitude and celebration, not to pretend that grief is absent.

[16:27]

So, we will celebrate that on the 24th. However, and by the way, there will be no Seshiyin that day. We've rescheduled everything because we believe in impermanence. So, it seems like this was important to do. We really wanted Sojourn Roshi to be to be able to enter that ceremony wholeheartedly and physically. And he was fine, totally agreed to that. Next week, so that's the 17th, we will celebrate the occasion of Sojourn Roshi offering priest ordination to Kika Susan-Helene,

[17:32]

who has been his close student for quite a while. And this is something that all of us really wanted to see him able to do. And so, that will take place also at three o'clock on next Saturday. We will have a regular Saturday program. So, that's the 17th and the 24th. And then at some point in the future, tentatively it's scheduled for I think the 28th of December. It might get changed. We'll send out a notice about that. At some point, there will be a mountain seat ceremony that presumably would invite me to go forward as the habit of Berkeley's Ancestor. And that's been, that was Sojourn's choice. It's been recently affirmed by the

[18:50]

community in an electoral process as such. And I don't want to say a lot about that now, because I'm still trying to get my head around it. But we will let you know about that. There are a few other things that I would like to just tell you about, just so we lay out the full schedule for the next couple months. On November 3rd, Election Day, we'll have an open Zendo from 7.30 until about 5 p.m., maybe later, depending on what the need is. And it's just a place of refuge for people of, I would say, people of any and all political stripes. Just, you're welcome to, we encourage you to vote. Really important.

[19:53]

And you're welcome to come and sit, just show up at any point in the day. We'll have alternating periods of zazen and walking meditation, and a couple of periods for a kind of open discussion. But please join us if, you know, it's certainly this election, again, no matter what side you're on, has been a, in the midst of the pandemic, has been a source of anxiety for many people. So take the refuge. Step into zazen once you've, once you've cast your vote. And you're welcome to do that. I'll just say we will have, we're having an abbreviated rohatsu this year, which will take place from the 19th to the 21st of December, roughly, well, seven o'clock in the morning until,

[20:57]

seven until about five in the evening. And then we'll have our New Year's Eve program. So that's the rest of the year in short. Also, just to say, I've been scheduling some Tuesday evening teas. And if you want to participate in that, please contact Hannah, and all this stuff will be in the chat at the end. I want to thank, there's been, this week has been really busy. As I said, it's really, it's, it's hard to be, it's hard to figure out what is appropriate. You know, so fortunately, we've been in in very, really good conversations with,

[22:03]

with Sojin Roshi, kind of looking with him, looking at his, his energy. And right now, I think that what he really wants to get done, and he's been working really hard with, he's been working several days a week, particularly with, with Ron and Kika. Editing a book of talks. He's got three books that are in the works. And these are extremely important. This is what he wants to do now. And I really want to support him to do that, and to clear the decks to whatever extent he wants to and feels it's appropriate. So he's working on, he's been working for a long time on a new book of Suzuki Roshi's talks, which he's working on with his student Jiryu at Green Gulch. He's been working with Ron and Kika

[23:10]

and others on a collection of Berkeley Zen Center talks, and an anthology of them. And I think that's, that's pretty much along the way. And maybe Ron or Kika can tell you about that in the Q&A. And he's also been working on a memoir. And to me, these are all books that we need. And so I really want to support him as a first priority in, in doing that right now. But meanwhile, we've had to evaluate what the need, what we think the need of the sangha is, what his needs are, what his energy is. And that's how we moved up these ceremonies. Originally, we were thinking of the stepping down ceremony as paired with the mountain seat, but

[24:11]

it just seems too, too long to wait. So I want to thank particularly, there's a whole bunch of people who are working on the technology for this, which is the technical logistics for the Berkeley for the mountain seat and for the stepping down the mountain seat are more complex than anything we've done. Because they're, they're going to have to be digital. But Steve Weintraub, from Zen Center, who's one of Sojin's disciples, has been coordinating the, the activities of these, of these two large ceremonies. And we're very grateful to him. He's very, he's very even, calm person, and it's just kind of the right and he's also has a fair amount of he's has a lot of

[25:12]

experience with these, with these ceremonies through Zen Center. So he's the right person to help out and it's a pleasure to work with him. The mind of enlightenment is the mind that sees into the nature of impermanence. That's really the point to hold in mind. I think that's a place to stop and I'm happy to take your questions about any of this, the dharmic aspects, the practical aspects. And, you know, may Sojin be well, may we all be well. And we hope that you'll be able to participate.

[26:13]

All these ceremonies, by the way, are going to be at this link, the link that you're at right now. Ah, they'll all be in the in the center. So with that, do I give it back to Blake to call on people. So I've opened up the chat so that everybody can chat, or you can type a question in the chat, please precede it with a question mark or the word question, but you can type a question to everybody in the chat or you can raise your blue hand as one participant, one Sangha member has done and I'll call on you. And if, of course, Hozon, if you'd like to call on somebody, you may do that as well. Sure. So first, I invite Ross Blum to lower his hand, unmute yourself and ask a question. Blake, and thank you, Hozon, for a lovely talk on such short notice,

[27:20]

and an apt topic drawing on Suzuki Roshi's teaching. May it go well. Thank you. May we all go well. I also invite Ben to unmute yourself and lower your hand and ask a question. Hi, Hozon, can you hear me? I can. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for your talk. I just felt compelled to share. I sort of feeling a lot of sorrow and concern this morning, and actually felt it before I found out that Sojin would not be speaking and you were giving our talk. And I guess two things come up for me. Recently, I've had some feeling or noticed some possible connection between non-acceptance of impermanence and greed. Greed, yes. Not that that's not understandable, but I see sort of

[28:25]

me enjoying some food and wanting more of it, even when I'm full, seems to be not altogether different from me really enjoying a person or an experience and not wanting it to go away. And part of impermanence is that it's easy to forget that it's there sometimes. And take for granted what's around. And the other thing I'm feeling right now is real, some sorrow around not being able to gather in person during times like these. And for not being able to have practice side by side with you and Sojin over the past few months, which would have been possible without the pandemic. So, that's what I wanted to share. And thank you so much for your leadership and your care.

[29:27]

Thank you. Thank you, Ben. Well, I certainly think that that tie between not accepting impermanence and greed makes complete sense. I think that the analogy between eating food that you like and then eating more, even when you're not hungry, is maybe a little different than missing people that you can't see. I think that, you know, if you eat more, you're going to get sick. Now, actually, if you get too much of somebody that you like, that may not work either. But that's not really the problem.

[30:30]

Ah, I think impermanence is really subtle. And it's, to me, so the impermanence is one of the three marks of existence. Traditionally, three marks of existence are impermanence, non self and suffering. So, to me, impermanence and non self go very closely together. Non self means that everything is constructed of other things. Does that make sense? So, nothing, there's no essence. There's no, like, uh, Ben is constructed of many non Ben elements. However, the third mark, I think, is a large question for us, particularly in Mahayana Buddhism.

[31:39]

To my mind, suffering is completely contingent on our attitude towards non self and impermanence. If, if we can include it, if we can accept it, if we can fold it in, then, then, rather than Dukkha, we have Nirvana. Which is exactly what Dogen is saying, the mind of enlightenment is the mind that sees into the nature of impermanence. Nirvana is recognizing the fundamental nature of impermanence. And when we reject it, it's suffering and that suffering can take the form of greed, hate, delusion, or any mix of the three.

[32:42]

So, thank you. And I wish that we were practicing face to face together. But I also really feel, you know, I feel the presence and relationship of so many of us. And actually, so this is one of this, this is a stone that we can stumble over. Or what we can recognize is actually how have our relationships, what binding energy has actually intensified among all of us over the last nine months. And I really believe that I feel it in my heart. I feel like I know people better and closer we have, we have more opportunities for a kind of fluid interaction. And so there's a gift in there, even though there's, even though there's a loss as well. Thank you.

[33:48]

Thank you, Hosan. Is there a moment for me to share one quick additional thing? I'll be quick. I was listening to a Sojin lecture, I think from Rahatsu 2018, which I was not able to attend a couple days ago, and I found this little passage in his talk that I wanted to share. Yes, just be totally sorrowful. When it's sorrow, just be totally sorrowful so that there's nothing outside of your sorrow. Then, because there's nothing outside of your sorrow, it's no longer sorrow. It's only sorrow when its opposite is there. I wish that it wasn't like this. That just creates more and more sorrow. The more you want to escape from your sorrow, the more sorrowful you get. That's the way it works. Just go completely into your sorrow, and then there's no sorrow. Yeah. Thank you. I invite Raghav to unmute himself and ask a question.

[34:50]

Thank you. Wait. Hi, Hosan. Thanks for bringing up the topic. On the one side, while we work on accepting the impermanence aspect of it, on the other side, is there any one little thing that we can do for Sojan? We may not have an answer now, but maybe it's an open question for... I don't know if you have an answer, but maybe otherwise it's an open question. I have an answer. All he wants is for you to practice. That's it. You know that, right?

[35:54]

Right? Yeah. That's all he wants. Guess what? There's nothing that he wants for himself. There's nothing that's lacking in his life or his household. All he wants is for us to practice, for you to practice. I was going to say that. I know I was going to say that. That's what he's going to say, right? Yeah. But still, I wonder still if there's something. I don't know. Maybe it's a question I have to keep asking myself. I think that's fine. Also, I think to the extent that there's anything practical or material to do, we'll put the word out. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you for that offer. I invite Linda Hess to unmute herself and ask a question. Thank you. Good morning.

[36:57]

Sojan, thank you first for your sensitive and wise words this morning. Thank you. I enjoyed listening to you. The question that I'm asking has to do with what you began with, you know, Suki Roshi's teaching using stones. So, ever since I read St. Augustine's Confessions in college, I always remember this one line that he said, the thing which I would not do. He's asking God, you know, why God? What? Help me. The thing that I would not do, that I do. And the thing that I would do or would want to do, that I do not do. So, it's easier to understand not blaming stones, you know, because the stones, it's kind of crazy. Yeah. If the stone is our own addictive and harmful patterns, it's harder to

[38:10]

just appreciate how they bring us down and they bring us up. They're not just innocent stones. We have some responsibility, you know, all of that language. So, could you clarify that for me? Well, I think what he's saying, and I think this is, this is, this is what Lori and I have, you know, for over the course of the pandemic, we've been reading about, we've been reading the Lankavatara Sutra, which is basically one of the core Zen texts. It's Bodhidharma's core text. And it was also, well, it's a core Zen text that actually is talking about the nature of mind and, you know, related to the mind-only school of the Yogacara school. And basically, I think that the argument is that those things are like stones. That if you can regard them as stones,

[39:17]

just as stones, then you can use them to stand up by. And in fact, if you didn't have these difficulties, you probably wouldn't be here. You wouldn't be in this conversation. You wouldn't be at the Zendo. So, it's, I would say, they are innocent. They're not guilty. And you have to figure out how to use the problem. Each of us, each of us has to figure out how to use the problems that we have, because they're what we've been given to work with. And, you know, the problem I think that you're pointing to, which I, oh, I'm going to let that ring. The problem that, hang on a second, I'm sorry. Can't talk.

[40:23]

That was not a problem. That was my sister. What you're alluding to, I think, is that the things, these problems can cause harm for other people. I'm going to mute myself. Just one second. I wanted to say, while Hozon is muted and the phone goes on, that Kika mentioned in response to the line of questioning, if Sojin wants anything of us, it's presence, lots of presence. How do you spell that? You spell it with a C, E, not with a T, right?

[41:30]

So, what I was saying is, I think that what you're alluding to, Linda, because I know we've talked about this a lot, is that we can do harm to people. And we will not stop doing harm to people until we actually really see, this is what Suzuki, so, you know, he talks about this, I think. He says, um, when you're deluded about the Earth's true nature, that is delusion. When you're enlightened about the Earth, that is enlightenment. When you stand up by the Earth, that is enlightenment. When you fall and blame the Earth, that is delusion. The same thing is true of our, the distortions of our personality and actions. Maybe I should leave it there, if that's okay. But thank you. Thank you for, for, for getting up again and again.

[42:34]

It's, it's, it's a really powerful example. It's really, it's inspiring. I invite Susan Marvin to unmute herself and lower her blue hand. Good morning, Alan. Morning. Thank you so much for this lovely time and your words and your presence. What comes to mind, you know, just a few days before my father died, he was 95. He looked me in the eyes and he said, are you going to fall apart when I die? And I said, absolutely not. I'm going to grieve and I'm going to miss you terribly, but I'm not going to fall apart. And he was so relieved. There was a kind of lightness that emerged. And I, I think that,

[43:35]

you know, Sojin, he sees how we're not falling apart, how the practice has become so strong during this time of the pandemic, how, how we, the strength of our practice is so, so alive and so present. And look how many of us are here online, day in, day out. And I imagine that's a great relief to him that he can see that strength and he knows that we'll grieve, but that we'll, Berkeley Zen Center is in good shape. I just wanted to share that. Thank you. Well, first of all, when we were talking with him this week, I, what I felt, I did not feel any sense of resignation.

[44:40]

What I felt was that he trusted what was going on and he trusted the Sangha to be able to hold it. So, so that was, that was really encouraging. The other thing is that what, in referring to what Ben quoted, we may have moments of falling apart. That's okay. You know, we fall apart. This is the nature, to me, it's nature. The practice is falling apart and coming together. You know, it's dying and coming back to life and dying and coming back to life in each moment. And so when we sorrow, we should really sorrow completely and not just, it won't just be one time. You know, tears come and when they come, let them flow

[45:49]

and they'll stop and something else will happen and you'll, you'll cry again. That's okay. That sorrow, it's not like one blip and it's over. You know, it's just whatever, actually, whatever it is that we're doing to enter it completely. And that's, I think, what we learned from our practice. That's what we learned from Sojan. That's what he learned from Suzuki Roshi. And I think many of us are really, really grateful for that. So thank you. I invite Deb Self to unmute herself. Good morning, Sojan. Can you hear me all right? My internet is unstable.

[46:55]

It's okay. It's a little funky, but I can hear you. Go ahead. I'm so interested that stumbling blocks might be a concept in other scriptures. I was raised, as I said in comments before, with some of the Christian scriptures, which admonish us not to be our brother's stumbling block. And that is one of the teachings that I think that I'm, I think that I've lost my internet, but I'll just finish this. Okay. I'll finish this thought, which is, it's never occurred to me the opposite of that might be being a stone there for my brother and sister to get up. And also the people who seem like my stumbling blocks, maybe my getting up stones. And I'm interested to learn more about any Buddhist tradition

[48:01]

around stumbling blocks. I'd have to look further. But I mean, one of the things I think that's sort of goes across the board to me for spiritual religious teachings is that every teaching is a remedy for your suffering. So it's not that the Christian teaching is in contradiction to the Buddhist teaching because those teachings are not absolutes. You know, some other place, you know, the Buddha might say, yes, mindfully remove all the stones from the pathway. You know, I could imagine that he says something like that. And I can certainly imagine Christ who was given to seemingly paradoxical

[49:06]

statements, talking about using the stone to get up from that would seem completely in character with those teachings too. So you use what's useful. You know, you use the teaching in a way that's useful. If it's not useful at this moment, then forget about it. And if it comes around and proves, oh, yeah, that's useful. Great. But I'll look for it. I'll look for that for you. And we can talk about it. I see. Let's just take these next three. And probably that's it. Peter Overton. Oh, how's it going? Really great to see you. You too. Thank you so much for your words this morning. I just had a couple of impressions from what you

[50:10]

said, the topic of your talk, having to do with, it seemed like we were talking a lot about a moment of challenge when it comes to holding both celebration and grief and accepting the help of the earth to take the next step. And it seems to me while there is, in fact, of course, a moment of challenge or many moments of challenge in that practice, it seems that the moment of acceptance or being able to hold those two things that seem contradictory has a kind of awesome beauty to it that arises. And at the moment, the moment you turn to stand up, something happens. And I think it's sometimes useful to remember that, that there's a positive characteristic or attribute.

[51:15]

Right. I think, yeah, I think that that's right. And I think that to be honest, I feel like I was trained in, in kind of another pattern. So, you know, I just think about it as like you trip over the stone and you fall down and, you know, then you're rolling around on the ground and say, you know, I'm, I'm hurt. I'm hurt. I'm getting dirty. I'm hurt. You can roll around and wallow in that, you know, instead of just, instead of getting up, you know, it reminds me of the scene in, in The Producers where, what's his name?

[52:22]

Not the Zero Must Deal character. What's the other actor's name? I can't remember. Anyway, Zero Must Deal throws a, throws a, a glass of water and he's, I'm wet. I'm wet. I'm hysterical and I'm wet. You know. Eventually you have to get up. Right. You have to get up. You have to get up. So why not get up when you can, you know, and not wallow, not make more of your suffering than is necessary. It's not that you're not suffering, but just don't make, don't get stuck in it. Actually, before I go to Kabir, I wonder if Ron or Kika wants to say something about the progress of the books. Kika, you want to go ahead? I can just say what we have been doing and then Ron can add maybe what I forget.

[53:31]

But Ron and Sojin and I meet once a week. And then recently, the last two weeks going forward, three or four times a week, three times a week to go over talks that were first gone over by another group of people, Susan Marvin, Carol Paul, Karen Sondheim, Andrea Thatch, lots of people contributed to getting, going through Sojin's talks and essays. And we got 35 chapters or so. So Sojin has gone through each chapter at least once, if not twice. So we have some pretty clean, beautiful chapters. So now we're just seeing, did we miss any good gems? You know, he continues to give talks that are really good, and we want to include those as well. So it's kind of where do we stop? And do we do a volume two? I'll let Ron pick up from there.

[54:35]

But it's such rewarding work. It's such a nice way to be close with Ron and Sojin. And also to just read, read and reread Sojin's autobiography and his lectures. It's a really good way to learn Sojin's teaching. Okay, so we're working on his autobiography right now, because we've gone over the first pass of the lectures. We'll go back some more. But now we're working on his autobiography, which he's been working on for quite a while, as well as four talks he gave at Tassajara, Wayseeking Mind talks about his life. And, you know, I'd rather just tell you how I feel about his attitude rather than the details of the books. But you know, we're working really hard on it. And he is very sharp when he's working with us. And he's reading, he picks up things instantly in language that I would never even think about. And he's very thorough. But he's also very

[55:46]

sensitive, especially going back over his life. And also very matter of fact. And those two qualities are teach me I think he could do something about how he is taking care of what he's doing right now is a matter of culmination of matter of factness and real sensitivity. So that's what it feels like. And I'm learning from that. Thank you. Thank you both. Thank you for that work. And just to say I've always felt that that Sojin Roshi was an excellent editor, excellent editor of his own work and excellent Suzuki, which is where it really just tears it down to the, to the essence. And I've learned a lot from just observing how he does that. So thank you. Before I take the last two, I just said, Matt Glazer posted the clip from the producers that I was unskillfully enacting,

[56:51]

and it's worth seeing but not not right now. We'll wait till right after the talk. Kabir. Good morning. Thank you. Thank you for a great talk, as always, and wishing Sojin fast recovery. Definitely. I'm worried, but that's human nature. In regards to the stones on the path, I sort of see it. I kind of look at it as acknowledgement and also taking responsibility. And the quote that comes to mind is from Shanti Deva. And I actually have experienced that myself with my sandals. So when I'm walking with my Oh, you're frozen. Oh, he gives that analogy is if you want to protect the bottom of your feet,

[57:55]

you can cover the entire world with leather, or simply one on a pair of shoes, right? You know, um, the stones are always going to be there. We just got to do our part and keep continue to get back up. Right. Thank you. Well, it's also interesting that one tiny, tiny stone in your sandal can be very uncomfortable. Yes, you can see it. And if your job is to be a road builder, you want to make a smooth pathway, because that's your job. That's your intention. So it's not like, you know, you leave. I mean, I think about places in Berkeley was like, why have they left all these ruts there? You know? Anyway, the last one is Helen. Good morning. Morning. I've been reading Francis Weller, who writes a lot about grief and sorrow.

[59:01]

And he quoted poet Galil Gibran saying, the deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain. And I've been thinking about that relationship between grief and mourning and sadness. And on the other hand, and also celebration and joy. And I find great comfort in that. And I just wanted to share it with you and everyone and also find out what you think about that idea. I think I think that suffering can really teach us about to experience the joy of not suffering. You know, and that makes us look even more deeply into the nature of suffering, but also into the nature of joy. I mean, I think that I really relate to

[60:07]

these words of Thich Nhat Hanh that suffering is not enough. That one of the problems in the configuration in the in the understanding of Buddhism or the way it's taught in a very simplistic way is that life is suffering. And I, the way I think about it is life is marked by suffering. It doesn't boil to say life is suffering means it boils down to suffering, which is pretty unacceptable. But I feel that suffering, it's like, as, as you were quoting, I feel that suffering kind of tempers us. Suffering can break you. But it also is like a fire that you go through that, that allows you to be stronger and more flexible. You know, if you have the capacity to really to work with your suffering, then it can be a gift.

[61:17]

But I don't want to, I also don't want to simplistically or idealistically romanticize suffering. Suffering, somebody once asked me, does suffering bring redemption? Because I think in a lot of religious traditions, there's there's their kind of message. And I said, I don't really think so. But it can, it can be an element of that. But not necessarily. It's only what it's comes back to what I was saying that we learn in the longer photographs. It comes back to your mind, how you work with it. And that's our practice.

[62:20]

So I think this is a good place to stop. And I want to thank you all. And let's just, let's take care of, let's all take care of each other. And let's take care of sojourn in the practice as best we can. And have a good weekend.

[62:39]