Good morning. Yesterday I spoke on the Mahapashapati for the most part, on the Therigata nuns and their teachings. So how many of you were here yesterday? A lot. So today I thought I would talk about some of the other nuns and give you Kind of a different introduction than I gave yesterday.

[01:07]

The Therigata nuns came into being while Siddhartha was alive and teaching. They made a request to Gautama to allow them to form communities as well as to live in the forest so he rejected their request three times and then Inanda intervened and his He gave the Buddha an argument that turned his whole teaching to support Mahapajapati's request.

[02:51]

So they began to grow and it was a first of its kind, where women were allowed to direct themselves, to create, to not have to have a male presence in their life to make a decision. So, Terry is a woman elder, and Gata is a song. And I was looking for the ancient teachings of women, which seemed to have disappeared.

[04:05]

I found a few books in our library that talked about the ancient teachings of the Therigata women, and I got very absorbed in it. The Theragata still exists. It is now under the reign of the Theragata. Those are the monks of the Theravadan tradition. But it must have been a very exciting time because as things were changing, there was a war which left women without a male heir or a male presence.

[05:27]

And so they went to Mahapajapati for guidance. And then they asked her if they could join her order. So she had the largest following of disciples. She had 500. And Patachara had 30 disciples, and those were the two largest groups of women practitioners. So I thought... The 30 nuns under Patachara is what I'll focus on.

[06:55]

The teachings are poems, and they're not all attributed to a particular nun. They shared them, And their purpose was to just get the message out there. So each poem is an enlightenment experience. So I'll read this one. When they plow their fields and sow seeds in the earth, when they care for their wives and children, young Brahmins find riches. But I've done everything right and followed the rule of my teacher.

[08:02]

I'm not lazy or proud. Why have I not found peace? Bathing my feet, I watched the bath water spill down the slope. I concentrated my mind the way you train a good horse. Then I took a lamp and went into my cell, checked the bed, and sat down on it. I took a needle and pushed the wick down. When the lamp went out, my mind was freed. Patachara's poem recounts the moment of her enlightenment experience, which took place later.

[09:07]

In one sense, this is a type poem, one of a number of poems used that uses the same imagery. Playing on the primary meaning of Nirvana. Extinguishing of a lamp. Then there was, Patachara says, with pestles, Brahmins grind corn, feeding wives and children. Brahmins find riches. Practice the Buddha's teaching and you won't regret it. Quickly, when you have washed your feet, sit down beside me, intent on peace of mind.

[10:18]

Practice the Buddha's teaching." Then there's a narrator who says, when they heard Padachara's teaching, they washed their feet and sat down beside her, intent on peace of mind. They practiced the Buddha's teaching in the first watch of the night. They remembered they had been born before. In the middle watch of the night, the eye of heaven became clear. And in the last watch of the night, the great dark was torn apart. They stood up then and bowed to her feet. 39 nuns, we have taken your advice and we will live honoring you like the 30 gods honoring Indra who never lost a battle.

[11:25]

We have the three knowledges. There are no obsessions in our minds. So I thought I'd tell you the story of Padachara. She was born to a banker's family and And she had fallen in love with a servant in her household. This was verboten. Her father, not knowing this, had arranged for her to marry somebody of her class.

[12:37]

So one night, she and her lover ran off. And they set up housekeeping in a distant village. So, not shortly thereafter, she became pregnant. As her time was coming due, she wanted to give birth at her family's home, which was traditional at the time. So she asked her husband and he says, no, you can't go there. They did not leave on very good terms. So she sneaks out one night and tries to make it to her family's home, but can't.

[13:52]

And her husband comes after her and he helps her give birth. And then they go home to her husband's house. So A few years later she gets pregnant again. She tries to go to her family's home and she starts out and her husband comes after her and she starts to give birth before she reaches her family's home. So they do it again, except this time her husband gets bitten by a snake and he dies.

[15:06]

So there she is alone in the forest with a storm coming on The storm overtook everything. It flooded the creeks. So she tries to make it to her mother's house and she leaves her son on the bank of the river and tells him to stay there while she takes the baby and finds help so she sees something in the distance she puts the baby down she goes off she keeps looking back and she sees a hawk

[16:21]

flying in that grabs her baby. It's probably an eagle. So she runs screaming at the hawk who just takes off with it. And her son thinks she's calling him. So he comes running to the edge of the riverbank. he falls in and dies. So by this time, Padachara is distraught, very distraught, and she makes it to her family's house. But before she gets there, she asks one of the local villagers how they are, where are they? And he says, you don't want to ask that question because their house burned down and everyone in it.

[17:25]

So this Patachara thought she couldn't take it. So she started walking in circles and crying. And one day she found herself in the Jeta Grove where the Buddha was teaching. And He calmed her down and told her he wanted her to check in with every villager she saw to see if anyone in their household had died. I think you've heard this story. And she couldn't find one.

[18:29]

So she came back to the Buddha and told him, there is no one. Everyone has experienced the death of someone in their life. And that was her lesson. So... She went on to have many disciples. And... Some of them came from the harem of Gautama.

[19:44]

When his father died, he left a household full of women, many of whom were the members of his harem, Gautama's harem. And Gautama's father did not have a harem. He had two wives. The first one died. That was the one that gave birth to Siddhartha. She died a week after he was born. Oh, there's a legend about Gautama's harem.

[20:48]

They were a gift. At a special event, the young Siddhartha was said to have displayed such impressive feats of strength that all the Shakyans sent a daughter to his household. and they became his harem. He said they sent 40,000, but that's not likely. Though this is surely a legend, it was no doubt told to show how powerful a person Siddhartha was, even in his youth. It was a powerful man's privilege to marry or to keep more than one woman, For example, Gautama's father, as we know, had two wives. One of the wives was Mahajapati, and then her sister, Maya, was the other.

[21:58]

So what happened to most of them is they all entered the order of the nuns. And it did not. Once Gautama had relinquished total control of the order of nuns to them, they had freedom for the first time in their life. Um...

[23:05]

Most sources hold that the Buddha's dying words were to be a light unto yourself, an idea complemented by the earliest Buddhist teachings on no views, not having any views. The teaching suggests that we not seek to embrace a particular doctrine, or faith, or ideology, or form. In that spirit, it must be noted that the original nun sangha, although radical in its position on women relative to society, was sexist in many respects. Its rules were sexist and the obstacles to women's achievement were significant.

[24:16]

As women and men continue to embrace Buddhism today, and especially as Westerners embrace a tradition so different from our own, we should take care not to tolerate sexism in the Buddhist institutions with which we are affiliated. nor perpetrate discrimination as new structures are invented." So they had 2,500 years of developing structures that must look entirely different than what it looked like 2,500 years ago. The old form didn't sustain women over the long haul. The Bhikshuni Sangha, the Theravadan, died out. Without significant changes, it will not sustain us now.

[25:22]

I know that there are women In fact, I got on a website looking for them. And I found a monastery out near, in California, and it was just a few Theravadan nuns. They were no longer under the rule of the Theravadan monks. So I'm going to close this with this little poem. Get rid of the tendency to judge yourself above, below, or equal to others.

[26:30]

I have no idea what time it is. Oh, 40 minutes, that's lots. We can talk then. Okay. Dean. Thank you. I was here yesterday as well. According to the Therigatha poems, they were all expressing the Four Noble Truths, and the Eightfold Way was what they were practicing.

[27:43]

all the nuns. They didn't have, it isn't like in America today, where Buddhism looks very different depending on where you go. But then their teacher was alive, the Buddha. And he was always talking to his disciples, women and men, keep them on the right path Judy yeah Right, there were

[29:15]

lay women and lay men, and then there were monks and nuns. Those were the four categories. And what was the question? Oh. Right, depending on the weather, right? The lay women did not preach. Only the nuns did. And they were oftentimes influenced by the nuns

[30:21]

to leave home and enter the stream. So they were stream enterers. That's what the lay women became. Or they weren't interested, but the ones who were found a way to practice, and they all practice the same thing. Penelope. I have a theory. I have a theory. A year is a long time, and as you know, like just living here, five years goes by, and we look back at the old rules, and they look totally different.

[31:36]

Ten years is even more so. And then we're aging. So... The 600 years that have gone by, there was a steady decline because they lost their teacher. This is what I think. And the monks were in charge, and so they brought the rules back that Siddhartha had previously gotten rid of. But there's no record that says that. There was a strong attachment on the part of men to keep women from having authority.

[32:40]

Yes. Terja? Terracroft. Now. Yeah. I have a teacher, and I sit here with my sisters and know that we can all go as far as we can go with the Dharma.

[34:51]

You know, that, you know, if I deserve it, I think I'm proud of somebody. Yeah, it is. Well, I just discovered it. I was going along studying Dogon happily and then I bumped into this book and just took another turn. I just started, I got very interested in reading about the Buddha from the woman's point of view, because it's different.

[35:56]

And he gave an interesting sermon on friendship, just to women. I left it home, but he said that women should value each other like they were family or relatives, and if we could do that, we could be happy or we could break through to the other side. Yeah, what is with us? How come we're not all buddies?

[37:02]

And where does that competition come from? It could be, I don't know. Yeah. Dean. Is there any record of the conversation between Ananda and the Buddha that impacted the change? Yeah. Where... Well, he just took the argument back to Buddha. Buddha's argument, he turned it. He turned it so that... I can find it. You want me to find it? This book is Susan Murcott, The First Buddhist Women, Poems and Stories of Awakening.

[38:25]

There were a couple of people's dissertations in the library which I didn't want to use because this person has done... she did this on the side of her regular job. Uh, which... So that was with personality. Okay, the argument that won Pajapati's cause.

[39:35]

Well, I'll just start here. Then the blessed one set out for Vasali. Pajapati cut off her hair, put on saffron colored robes, and headed for Vasali with a number of Shakyan women. She arrived at Kutagara Hall in the Great Grove with swollen feet and covered with dust. Weeping, she stood there outside the hall. Seeing her standing there, the venerable Ananda asked, why are you crying? Because Ananda, The Blessed One does not permit women to renounce their homes and enter into the homeless state under the Dharma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata. Then the Venerable Ananda went to the Buddha, bowed before him and took his seat to one side and he said, Pajapati is standing outside under the entrance porch with swollen feet covered with dust.

[40:49]

and crying because you do not permit women to renounce their homes and enter the homeless state. It would be good, Lord, if women were to have permission to do this." Enough, Ananda. Don't set your heart on women being allowed to do this. A second and a third time, Ananda made the same request in the same words and received the same reply. Then Ananda thought, the blessed one does not give his permission. Let me try asking on other grounds. Are women able, Lord, when they have entered into homelessness, to realize the fruits of stream entry, once returning, non-returning, and arhatship? Yes, Ananda, they are able.

[41:49]

If women then are able to realize perfection, and since Pajapati was of great service to you when your mother died, it would be good if women could be allowed to enter into homelessness. If then, Ananda, if then, Ananda, Pajapati accepts the eight special rules, let that be reckoned as her ordination. So this is the argument that gets Pajapati into the door. Then she requests, I would ask one thing of the Blessed One, Ananda. It would be good if the Blessed One would allow making salutations, standing up in the presence of another. paying reverence and the proper performance of duties to take place equally between both bhikshus and bhikshunis according to seniority, which wipes out the following seven rules.

[43:10]

This is impossible, Ananda. I cannot allow it. Even those teachers of false dharmas don't permit such conduct in relation to women. How much less can the Tathagata allow? If Prajapati's attempt to change the first and most blatantly sexist rule In Patapati's attempt to change the first and most blatantly sexist rule, we can understand that she was not in sympathy with the discrimination the rules reflected. Her request also indicates a radical democratic orientation. It comes at a time when even the ancient Greeks, who have been credited with founding democratic rule, only allowed free, non-slave males the privilege of citizenship.

[44:23]

And that's all that, according to this person's study, that they could find on the political, the politics of the Terrigata. It's sort of almost like you're saying that the whole idea of right speech, which I think you and I have done a talk on recently, I thought about that and I thought, this is a whole other aspect of right speech in my mind, that we can say something Yeah.

[45:26]

And this was the first women's movement that we can find. Yes. What's your name? Kisa? turning it on. That is a rather deep question. The extinguishing of the light is nirvana. And it has to be experienced to be understood. So I can't really answer the question.

[46:29]

I could say what I think it is, but it wouldn't be it. But it's an important image to keep in mind. Judy? Mmhmm.

[47:31]

Mm-hmm. I'm thinking about it because there's a... I'm such a visually oriented person. There's like... There's a hierarchy that Mel always talks about, but then there is a horizontal earth-touching way. And that part of who we are, the horizontal part, stays under the surface because of the rules Do you understand? Yeah, we do.

[49:19]

Yeah, I'm definitely a painter. like, um, So I take a few moments. I see in my vision a community of people who are fundamentally happy.

[50:42]

and yet they have problems. And the problem of citing the rules to maintain your course, which is not a happy place to go, and being happy is also kind of a weird word, but to lighten up. We could be such a huge support for each other if we could lighten up around each other and care about each other, really care. Care to the point where the Buddha said, if you See your friend unhappy.

[51:51]

Something has happened to your friend that you will go to them and stay with them. That's part of the teaching that he gave on friendship. But we have our lives all tied up. We have hardly any room for friends. We could make a little more room for that. And her brother, I forgot to mention him. Yeah. Now?

[53:34]

Now. Um, and I know now that you've talked about the authority that you had at the first time. And it seems that, um, I agree. I don't know where to go with this, but my Yep.

[54:42]

I don't want to deal with this. I'm a man. I'm just transforming. And that's, I think, our practice. For me, it's not about whether a man is in charge of me or not, or telling me what to do. And are you doing that? Are you practicing in the way that you just described? Yeah. Right. Right, yes.

[56:14]

I'm not trying to, and I'm trying carefully not to create a polarity. Because it isn't like the men are wrong. It's just that they're dominant. There's too much male energy. And they could give a little of that up. Right. All right. Hmm.

[58:02]

This is supposed to be a discussion, right? Somebody have an answer to that question? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I don't know.

[60:56]

I feel like... Yeah, not a long time. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, I wondered why we'd never talked about it before.

[62:07]

You're welcome. Mary. Thank you. Today I heard of another moment in Mahabajapati's journey that is inspiring to me. The first moment that I heard and that I've taken a lot of solace and inspiration from Having been refused three times, she gives her self-ordination, she shaves her own hair, she throws away her silks and jewelry and puts on her own body and walks the law. And what she's asking for, the book uses the word commission, but in my hearing that story, she's actually asking not for commission, she's already dying. She's asking for authorization.

[63:12]

Right. Authority. Right. And then she does it again, and then I hadn't heard that. They, in order to be ordained, in order to be recognized, they have to take on these onerous, the most senior of you is lesser than the most junior of us. Right. Yeah. So even though she's taking on the precepts and walking the path, she's already somehow stepped out of the conditioned mind in which she saw men and women as different. She's already liberated. So I guess the question, what it means to me is that when I first heard that story initially, You know, there's some conditioning in my mind that said my practice wasn't really having real values, it really wasn't.

[64:21]

You know, it's the rules, it's the authority out there. And that, and actually, that's not what the Buddha says, the Buddha says that you're laughing through sorrow. And so the koan there is how do we, how do we get, how do I listen to that? That's what I'm going to say. And also exist in the conditioned world, the particular conditioned world that we live in now. They have their own conditioning, but we have our circumstances. And how do we, how do I, I would say, live within the hierarchy and the alignment? Yes. I think we'll have to start talking about it to each other, not just women.

[65:23]

I had a long conversation with my husband about this. I wanted to get his take on things. Yeah, and he was very much in line with mine. I wouldn't have married him. Yeah, I couldn't tell you what he said, because I can't remember, but... It's nice. Thanks. Katie. Hmm.

[66:26]

Right? It's a question you have to ask yourself. And we can talk about it because there's a certain kind of taboo that I feel that we just don't talk about some things. But I think we've been together long enough Ellen? Yeah, right. Right.

[68:27]

Oh, okay. Hi, Kelsey. and that feels as though that's kind of the way I've always been taught to do things. And so there's this real Right, right.

[69:36]

Yes, I get that. No, I know what you mean. Yeah. OK.

[69:46]

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